Jimmy Cobb on Blue Note

[Mark Stryker]

How is it possible that Jimmy Cobb, among the most recorded drummers of the hard bop era in the 1950s and '60s only appears on only one Blue Note LP? Two tracks on Detroiter Sonny Red's "Out of the Blue" that were taped on Jan. 23, 1960. Totally weird. Could he and Alfred Lion have gotten off on the wrong foot?

[Peter Friedman]

Perhaps Michael Cuscuna might be able to shed some light on that question?

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

Perhaps Michael Cuscuna might be able to shed some light on that question?

Wouldn't Jimmy know more, especially if there was something between him and Alfred? 

It is kind of surprising when you think of it but maybe Alfred was happy with the cast of drummers he had, and no one he was recording really worked regularly with Cobb anyway.

[JSngry]

How much of a road band was the Wynton Kelly Trio?

Did any of those three record a lot on BN once that band went official?

[Larry Kart]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

How much of a road band was the Wynton Kelly Trio?

Did any of those three record a lot on BN once that band went official?

Good point. Also, though I like Cobb by and large, I think that Alfred liked drummers who had more cojones than Cobb did.

[mjzee]

There are probably some interesting stories there.  I've always wondered why Max Roach appeared on so few BN dates.

[medjuck]

4 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Good point. Also, though I like Cobb by and large, I think that Alfred liked drummers who had more cojones than Cobb did.

 Jimmy Cobb is still alive.  Would you say this to his face? 

Edited June 1, 2017 by medjuck

[Larry Kart]

12 hours ago, medjuck said:

 Jimmy Cobb is still alive.  Would you say this to his face? 

Sorry, I must have been thinking of Mickey Roker's recent death. As for saying it to Cobb's face, while that is my opinion and I'll stick by it -- do you honestly think that Cobb was as forceful a player as such Lion favorites as Philly Joe, Blakey, Higgins? -- what would be the point of that? 

Again, BTW, the issue was not Cobb's abilities as a drummer per se but why Lion might have preferred other drummers. 

[Ted O'Reilly]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

..... such Lion favorites as Philly Joe, Blakey, Higgins? --

...and Al Harewood.  Under-recognized!

[paul secor]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

Sorry, I must have been thinking of Mickey Roker's recent death. As for saying it to Cobb's face, while that is my opinion and I'll stick by it -- do you honestly think that Cobb was as forceful a player as such Lion favorites as Philly Joe, Blakey, Higgins? -- what would be the point of that? 

Again, BTW, the issue was not Cobb's abilities as a drummer per se but why Lion might have preferred other drummers. 

It might have come off better if you had said that Lion perhaps chose other drummers because their playing was more aggressive or "forceful", as you now put it, than saying that the usual BN drummers had had more cojones than Cobb did.

[Larry Kart]

Did/does anyone here fail to understand that "more cojones" as I used it above referred to my opinion of Cobb's forcefulness/aggressiveness as a drummer versus the forcefulness/aggressiveness of other drummers that Lion used a good deal, that there was no intent on my part (how could there have been?) to cast aspersions on Cobb's manliness or whatever? If anyone was or is still offended, I apologize.

[Larry Kart]

14 hours ago, mjzee said:

There are probably some interesting stories there.  I've always wondered why Max Roach appeared on so few BN dates.

Like Blakey, once Max was a bandleader he made few sideman appearances on any label. Blakey's last sideman appearance on BN was IIRC  on Lee Morgan's "Lee-Way" (1960). Max's, again IIRC, was on Thad Jones' "Detroit -New York Junction" from 1957, unless you count his appearance with Ellington and Mingus on "Money Jungle."

Max is on Tommy Turrentine's Time album, but that was Max's band of the time, under Tommy's name. Also, there was Sonny Clark's Time trio LP. Blakey is the ostensible leader on "A Jazz Message" (Impulse) from 1964, but  that's more or less a Sonny Stitt quartet date. No doubt others fill will fill in the blanks, if they exist.

P.S. Time was a Bob Shad label, which might account for Max's appearance there, since Max had been with EmArcy. FWIW, I just found out recently that Shad was writer-director-comedian Judd Apatow's maternal grandfather:

http://blog.superflyrecords.com/storyboard/judd-apatow-bob-shad-was-a-true-innovator/

[Mark Stryker]

I understood what Larry was saying, but I would disagree that there was significant enough difference in aggressiveness to be determinative as it related to Lion preferring all of the other drummers in his stable. On the broadly defined "scale of aggression," I would say that of the Blue Note drummers,  Blakey, Philly Joe and Elvin were generally more aggressive than Cobb, but that Cobb and Hayes were about equal and Cobb was more aggressive than Higgins and Harewood. Of course, these are slippery generalities. Still, I would also note that Cobb could bash the shit out of the drums when he was wanted to. Miles at Newport in '58 is exhibit A for the defense. Granted, Cobb did not play like this all the time, but holy shit ...

 

 

 

Coda: What would be the unit of measure on the "scale-of-aggression." Would we say that Philly Joe is "two Elvins" more aggressive than Cobb?

Edited June 1, 2017 by Mark Stryker

[Larry Kart]

BTW, by aggressiveness i didn't mean sheer or mere volume level but a tendency to interject more or less competing/stimulating rhythmic designs into and across those that the soloists were stating/proposing. From that point of view, Higgins for one would be more aggressive than Cobb usually was IMO.

Bobby Jaspar on Elvin and Philly Joe:

http://mosaicrecords.tumblr.com/post/46668849762/elvin-jones-philly-joe-jones-by-bobby-jaspar
 

[Mark Stryker]

Coda: 2: As to Jim's question above, I can't think of any Wynton Kelly appearance on Blue Note after 1961, but Paul Chambers did appear post-61 (and as late as '66) with Hancock, Mobley and Morgan. It is true thought that Chambers' appearances slow dramatically after '61, but his overall recording slowed down too and not just with BN. 

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

BTW, by aggressiveness i didn't mean sheer or mere volume level but a tendency to interject more or less competing/stimulating rhythmic designs into and across those that the soloists were stating/proposing. From that point of view, Higgins for one would be more aggressive than Cobb usually was IMO.

That's reasonable -- as I said, it's slippery and it's not binary. Volume, texture, density, color, interaction are all independent variables and it's cumulative effect that creates the degree of what registers as aggression. My larger point is that I don't think Cobb's aggressiveness on its own would be the factor that would get him kicked off the Blue Note Island. 

[Peter Friedman]

Art Blakey did appear as a sideman on recordings later than Larry suggested. 

Grant Green - Nigeria 1962

Ike Quebec - Easy Living 1962

Lee Morgan - Tom Cat 1964

Giants of Jazz -1971

Thelonious Monk Trio 1971

Walter Davis Jr. on Denon label 1977

[Larry Kart]

Thanks, Peter.

[felser]

On 6/1/2017 at 10:54 AM, Ted O'Reilly said:

...and Al Harewood.  Under-recognized!

and Joe Chambers