Hey Kids, Have You Heard The News? MOSAIC's IN TROUBLE!!!

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

Take a look into the froum software manual.

Again - I am a moderator, not an administrator. I do not have access to the forum software manual. Even if I did (and even if I knew enough about database management to understand those instructions, I still would not be able to do a damn thing about it.

I wouldn't expect anybody to automatically know that, but now, it is known.

Proceed accordingly - Please direct all such observations/suggestions/criticisms/etc. to the board's sole/solo administrator/owner. as he will be the only person who can do anything about it.

Otherwise, thread drift is perhaps the oldest and grandest of the Organissimo traditions, liable to break out without warning any damn where, y'all should have well be knowing that by now. But - if anybody wants to get technical about it,  this is my thread, the old one was killed on the baby's doorstep by it's owner, so I hereby fully authorize and encourage all tread drift that stays within accepted board practice.

People who need permission, you have it. People who don't, love ya', babe! People who need to be pissed off, start your own damn thread and then delete it when you choose. But don't go asking other people to get pissed off strictly on your behalf. That ain't right. That just ain't right.

Onward!

[Ken Dryden]

I can't speak for Michael Cuscuna, but adding color reproductions of the original albums covers to the booklets that accompany their boxed sets probably adds a significant cost. I don't think Mosaic would have lasted so long without some expertise in the reissue business, but not every project is destined to sell out within the time frame that the music can be licensed from the company owning the recordings. A limited edition download will not have much appeal to either Mosaic or their customers, as people wanting them will have no urgency and will either buy them when the owner later puts the music out or listen on Spotify. 

 

I hope this post stayed on topic enough for everyone...

Edited May 1, 2017 by Ken Dryden

[Teasing the Korean]

4 hours ago, J.A.W. said:

I've privately discussed what I did with a few people and tried to explain that in my view the direction the deleted thread was taking had nothing to do anymore with the original topic, the state Mosaic is in; it had been taken over almost entirely by discussions about streaming etc., which, like Paul Secor said upthread, is of no relevance since it had been established that there won't/can't be downloading etc. at Mosaic.

You start a thread, in a public forum, about the state of a company that manufacturers high-end horse-drawn carriages, and then you tell the participants that they are going off topic because they acknowledge the popularity of the automobile?  

It is irrelevant whether Mosaic is unable to offer downloads; but the fact that they don't offer downloads is nevertheless relevant.  Virtually everything brought up in that thread - including an aging/dying audience, downloads, streaming, pricing, content, and presentation - have all contributed to the state that Mosaic is in.   The fact that some of these factors are beyond Mosaic's control does not mean that all of their decisions have been good ones.  

Oh, and the person starting a conversation cannot control every turn that conversation takes.  Someone who allegedly listens to jazz, of all things, should have picked up on that by now.  

Edited May 1, 2017 by Teasing the Korean

[hbbfam]

4 hours ago, Niko said:

 

I'm still buying records but I wouldn't want to live without spotify. For the monthly price of less than an album, I have access to, e.g., the entire Steeplechase catalogue. When I'm travelling and feel like listening to something new, that's no issue. (And I hate carrying my CDs or organizing music files.) spotify and competitors provide access to a collection of music that easily beats any record store or private collection in the world. It's not permanent, stuff is coming and going (mostly stuff that nobody ever earned money with btw) but at any point in time there's more at your disposal than you ever wanted.

What is the sound quality like on Spotify.  I listen to music almost entirely on my stereo, so If I were to go to Spotify it would be through the BR player (internet access).

I realize having asked the question, I am veering off topic. 

[Bigshot]

The real problem with Mosaic is the price point. No one pays full retail price like they did back in the 90s. I still buy lots of CDs, but I buy them in big box sets at $2 to $3 a disc- and those are great boxes.

[John Tapscott]

7 hours ago, jazzbo said:

I didn't reply to the other thread.

To date I have all the items that are currently available for sale and have the next set on pre-order. So I can't really do much more other than buy other copies as gifts, which I may do this Xmas season--I have a brother and a father who could enjoy some more Mosaic.

 

Do you eat occasionally? You know, like food.... 

1 hour ago, Bigshot said:

The real problem with Mosaic is the price point. No one pays full retail price like they did back in the 90s. I still buy lots of CDs, but I buy them in big box sets at $2 to $3 a disc- and those are great boxes.

I think the Mosaic prices are definitely a deterrent, especially with the very large box sets...but they must know what they need per CD to stay viable...

Edited May 1, 2017 by John Tapscott

[jazzbo]

1 hour ago, John Tapscott said:

Do you eat occasionally? You know, like food.... 

 

I do, quite a bit actually. I don't drink alcohol though, so maybe that's how I do it! I spend a lot of my income on music one way or another (discs, equipment, instruments).

Anyway, yes the price is a deterrent to many I know. I think we get a lot for our money, but I'm still looking at it with "old school" glasses, and I want a lot of the stuff we get for our money, and know that "want" is not necessarily shared by others.

[BFrank]

I recently ordered the Woody Shaw Muse set and am looking forward to it. I have a few of the original albums on vinyl, but my records are in storage and I don't play them anymore.

Would like to get the Clifford Jordan set too, but it's currently on "back-order." I doubt that it will be available again.

[DISCLAIMER: I said virtually the same thing in the old, deleted thread] 

[Ken Dryden]

I have no problem with Mosaic's prices, considering what they do to create their boxed sets. It costs more, but that's the difference their boxed sets and others' sets, much like the difference between a filet mignon at Ruth's Chris vs. a sirloin steak at Western Sizzler.

[AaronG]

2 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

I have no problem with Mosaic's prices, considering what they do to create their boxed sets. It costs more, but that's the difference their boxed sets and others' sets, much like the difference between a filet mignon at Ruth's Chris vs. a sirloin steak at Western Sizzler.

Hmm.  Western Sizzler.  Isn't that a Bear Family box set?

[sgcim]

12 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

thanks, Scott - and you got it right. It may be that my perspective comes from a time when we had so few of these things, when acquiring them was a lot of work and so they seemed particularly precious. The visual is still important to me; as I said, I want my students to SEE the music as well as hear it.

as a matter of fact this made me think of something which actually argues against all my prior posts about sonics - about 30 or so years ago the business of showing jazz films started up when various people (like Mark Cantor and another gentleman who was a wonderful guy, has since passed, and whose name I cannot remember, though he was really the FIRST) started acquiring and showing them. And I remember thinking, as the sound was usually lo-fi on all of these, of how watching Lester Young play - and Coleman Hawkins, and Wardell Gray and Bud Powell, and...everyone else - gave me more of a sense of their artistry and presence than any record/78/CD I had ever listened to. So....back to the visual, I guess. I know it's a very different world, but that is part of the problem. In an age where anyone who can hold a saxophone has made 20 cds (including me, yes) the art is somewhat diminished by the volume of 'product' (a word I hate for obvious reasons). To me producing a CD is like writing....well, not a novel, but a novella or short story. It is an individual, shaped, and organized work of art. Which downloads, for me at least, can never represent. Somewhere there must be a Walter Benjamin essay which address this better than I can.

 

I liked the fact that a great guitarist like Dick Garcia only made one record as a leader. Then he got into a Zen Buddhism thing, and has been in seclusion for the last 50 years.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

10 hours ago, JSngry said:

No, not "anybody who deletes his own posts". Only people who delete their own thread-starting post.

Anybody/everybody else, delete all of your posts you want, nothing will happen except that they'll be gone.

No "alternative facts", please! You cannot make a post on your microwave, nor can you delete a thread by deleting your Post # 1539 in it.

If there's a setting in this software that allows for deletion of opening post/retention of thread (or a newer version of the software that allows for it), I'm unaware of it. I'm a moderator, yes, but not an administrator.

I'm sure the board owner would be delighted to hear your suggestions in full detail, especially in the form of a complaint!

Now please ... no nitpicking .... you know better than that and should be above that ...

I DID make that distinction by refering to the way other forums are set up: " where a thread starter can indeed delete his own posts too, including an opening post, but even removing an opening post does not remove the thread as such at all  ". I am really surprised that you didn't make this association in my final sentence (that you quoted above) too.  ANY setup where deleting one's own post will lead to a situation where the entire thread is killed (such as in this case of deleting one's own opening post) is less than ideal. Far less than ideal. Which was my entire statement. And yes - I resent that reference to "alternative facts"! This is nonsense and you know it - as you must have read (and understood) my post in its entirety. So please take my earlier statement as a simple reminder that it is not an inevitable fate of life that deleting an opening post on "a forum" will destroy the entire thread (as you - maybe inadvertently - insinuated when you said "Seeing as how that's where the topic title and whatever database markers reside, I don't see how it could be otherwise "). It is a weakness in the software of THIS forum, not in forums per se.

8 hours ago, mikeweil said:

It all depends on the settings the forums software allows. IIRC it has always been like this here, that the whole thread is deleted together with an opening post, which makes sense for sales threads and the like, to save storage space on the server.

The forum software I had allowed moderators to delete threads, members could edit their posts to blank space or "------" if they wanted to - and you could adjust the time span in which a post could be edited after posting, from one hour to infinity. Take a look into the froum software manual.

FWIW, this is one option I had seen on another forum - one that had its fair share of flame wars and nasty characters - not trolls, just wisecracks who at times seemed to have made a habit of altering or deleting their earlier posts, making threads barely usable anymore later on once the entire input form one person (who had contributed a lot before) had vanished. The admins then altered the settings so that you could only modify your earlier posts within a given time frame (less than 24 hours IIRC) and not anymore thereafter. Which only shows that depening on the forum software used it ALL can be done.

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

 

I DID make that distinction by refering to the way other forums are set up: " where a thread starter can indeed delete his own posts too, including an opening post, but even removing an opening post does not remove the thread as such at all  ". I am really surprised that you didn't make this association in my final sentence (that you quoted above) too. 

 

Your final sentence that I quoted was inconsistent with your initial reference, and did not create a logical association with the reset of you thought. It was like you had these real facts and then created an alternative fact of a conclusion. Kind of bizarre, really, but maybe you were having a bad day or a beer too many? I don't know, do you even drink? Or have bad days?

Here is you opportunity to defend yourself/. Bob is listening. Proceed.

 

 

 

 

[hgweber]

15 hours ago, JSngry said:

Just to make it clear, the only "power" over a thread that a non-moderator has is to delete their opening post. Any poster has the ability to delete their own post, of course, but when an opening post is deleted, it takes the whole thread with it. Seeing as how that's where the topic title and whatever database markers reside, I don't see how it could be otherwise.

I agree it seems like a pissy thing to do, to open a thread and then delete it after it's gotten all conversational and shit, but afaik, the only other options are for the OP to delete the contents of the post but leave the thread open. A request to lock the thread can be placed, of course, but a perception of petulance about the direction a conversation has taken, all of it within board guidelines, is not enough to lock a thread, imo.

This database shit, I understand very little of it, but I do know that this "power" to delete a thread resides in the hands of the user, not the software. Unless you want to have a system where nobody except a moderator can delete anything once posted, then this is how it's going to be.

 

 

i'm pretty sure it's just the way the forum is configured. a deletion of the thread-opening post should not cancel the thread. at the very least there will be an option in the software to only allow *editing* one's posts (i.e. just deleting the content within). 

Edited May 2, 2017 by hgweber

[mikeweil]

12 hours ago, JSngry said:

Again - I am a moderator, not an administrator. I do not have access to the forum software manual. Even if I did (and even if I knew enough about database management to understand those instructions, I still would not be able to do a damn thing about it.

Of course this is an administrator's thing to do, but you asked the question. 

That said, configuring forum options is not that sophisticated.

[Clunky]

On a purely selfish level I too hope Mosaic pulls through. I've been meaning to order a couple of sets which have been on back order. If they don't survive I'll miss out on the James P Johnson and Ella/Duke sets.

  Taking a wider perspective perhaps Mosaic needs to re-think it's strategy. They lead the way and I think you can see how their archival approach has rubbed off on the like of Uptown and Resonance records. In this digital age  I think there will always be a market for releases with added production effort put  into sound quality, notes and photos.

 

[tranemonk]

20 hours ago, John Tapscott said:

I am going to buy a big set in the near future, but if and when the end comes I hope they'll give us at least enough notice so we can get our very last orders in. Hope we don't log in some morning and find it's all gone overnight. Guess it will depend on what the creditors want to do.    

I ordered a set, online last week  and haven't heard back yet. 

18 hours ago, felser said:

As for Mosaic, they have had an incredible run.  I'm sure when they started in the early 80's, they didn't dare expect a 35 year run and hundreds of releases.   They were magic for awhile (Tina Brooks, Larry Young, etc.).  Time marches on.  We've been able to see so much more reissued on CD (by Mosaic and other labels) than I ever would have dreamed.  I'm grateful.  Even though I would never choose to listen to it, I'm thankful to Norah Jones' Come Away With Me album, which filled  Blue Note's coffers with cash, and maybe made possible some continued reissue campaigns (Conn, Rare Grooves, RVG) of their catalog.

Well said sir. 

[Big Beat Steve]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

Your final sentence that I quoted was inconsistent with your initial reference, and did not create a logical association with the reset of you thought. It was like you had these real facts and then created an alternative fact of a conclusion. Kind of bizarre, really, but maybe you were having a bad day or a beer too many? I don't know, do you even drink? Or have bad days?

 

My, my ... Are you really that intent on derailing your own thread? Obviously you understood the context and intention because you are well-versed enough to take in the contents of a couple of lines at a time. What I wrote in that final sentence by inference of course referred to what I said before. Why repeat everything three times within as many lines? So - AGAIN: Any forum setup that can get you into a situation where by deleting one's own post (one's opening posts ARE part of one’s own posts) you can kill the entire thread is highly impractical and not really thought out IMO. This is what my post above said and that's all.

So how about stopping splitting hairs? BTW, no beer here, hardly ever - feel free to help yourself instead ...

[David Ayers]

FWIW, time was on this board when the OP could NOT delete their own thread. It is almost certainly still switchable.

Edited May 2, 2017 by David Ayers

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

My, my ... Are you really that intent on derailing your own thread? Obviously you understood the context and intention because you are well-versed enough to take in the contents of a couple of lines at a time. What I wrote in that final sentence by inference of course referred to what I said before. Why repeat everything three times within as many lines? So - AGAIN: Any forum setup that can get you into a situation where by deleting one's own post (one's opening posts ARE part of one’s own posts) you can kill the entire thread is highly impractical and not really thought out IMO. This is what my post above said and that's all.

So how about stopping splitting hairs? BTW, no beer here, hardly ever - feel free to help yourself instead ...

Bob says that when making a logical argument, the closing sentence of the argument should summarize the main point, not divert away from it.

You follow whatever logic stirs your soul and spirit. As for me, make Mine Bob.

4 hours ago, hgweber said:

i'm pretty sure it's just the way the forum is configured. a deletion of the thread-opening post should not cancel the thread. at the very least there will be an option in the software to only allow *editing* one's posts (i.e. just deleting the content within). 

Thank you. This seems wholly logical. I would encourage any and all who would like to see this looked into further and perhaps be implemented to start a thread in the Forum, uh...forum and then pursue as befits.

[John Tapscott]

10 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

I have no problem with Mosaic's prices, considering what they do to create their boxed sets. It costs more, but that's the difference their boxed sets and others' sets, much like the difference between a filet mignon at Ruth's Chris vs. a sirloin steak at Western Sizzler.

I have no problem with Mosaic's prices insofar as they're obviously not making boatloads of money and they're obviously not ripping people off. Production costs are barely covered, it would seem, from by what they charge per CD.  So in that sense I have no problem. It's just that when you get into the bigger sets, the total price for a set becomes quite eye-popping and heart-stopping. I must admit to taking a big gulp of air whenever I push the Mosaic  "purchase" button.

Generally I'll take the sirloin steak at Western Sizzler over the filet mignon at Ruth's Chris and put the difference towards a Mosaic set. 

  

Edited May 2, 2017 by John Tapscott

[Ken Dryden]

4 hours ago, Clunky said:

On a purely selfish level I too hope Mosaic pulls through. I've been meaning to order a couple of sets which have been on back order. If they don't survive I'll miss out on the James P Johnson and Ella/Duke sets.

  Taking a wider perspective perhaps Mosaic needs to re-think it's strategy. They lead the way and I think you can see how their archival approach has rubbed off on the like of Uptown and Resonance records. In this digital age  I think there will always be a market for releases with added production effort put  into sound quality, notes and photos.

 

Doesn't Uptown acquire the source material outright for vintage recordings? I'm not sure about Resonance, which is set up as a non-profit, though there LP sets are limited editions, I don't think they have restrictions on how many CDs they can sell.

As far as I know, the only Mosaic set where they acquired the music outright was the Dean Bennedetti recordings of Charlie Parker. The rest have all been licensed and I imagine that most of the labels owning the music they seek are unlikely to want to sell it outright. The other issue is that Mosaic has to compete with all of the European labels who don't have to honor American copyright laws and can reissue stuff cheaply, though they don't always have quality source material to use and often skimp on discographical information.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Ken Dryden

[Scott Dolan]

I seriously doubt Mosaic would even entertain the notion of buying the full rights to most of the music they distribute. Doesn't seem as though it would make sense financially. 

[Ken Dryden]

I recently talked to Neal Weiss of Whaling City Sounds, who is in negotiations to issue previously unavailable recordings by an NEA Jazz Master. He is also talking to the former owner of a jazz club who recorded many artists who appeared there. Since nothing is in writing yet, it is not appropriate for me to divulge further information. The full article can be found on pages 11 and 46 here, I was unable to upload the attachment of just those two pages due to file size restrictions.                    http://nycjazzrecord.com/issues/tnycjr201705.pdf

[Dmitry]

1 hour ago, Ken Dryden said:

I recently talked to Neal Weiss of Whaling City Sounds, who is in negotiations to issue previously unavailable recordings by an NEA Jazz Master. He is also talking to the former owner of a jazz club who recorded many artists who appeared there. Since nothing is in writing yet, it is not appropriate for me to divulge further information. The full article can be found on pages 11 and 46 here, I was unable to upload the attachment of just those two pages due to file size restrictions.                    http://nycjazzrecord.com/issues/tnycjr201705.pdf

Nice one, Ken! I was surprised to see many familiar names from the Southern New England scene -  Dave Zinno, Adam Nussbaum, Dino Govoni, Steve Langone, Greg Abate of course...all local cats gigging around Providence. I'm blessed to be living away from New York, but still having access to top shelf musicians. Not everyone here can say the same...