Hey Kids, Have You Heard The News? MOSAIC's IN TROUBLE!!!

[JSngry]

"commodification" , yes. and although the dedicated market for "traditional forms of jazz" is small in size, there will be no end of performers to plug into whatever performance opportunities arise, the "product" has been clearly defined now. There's more players than audience!

[David Ayers]

Some very different geographies at work here. Lots of excellent music and musicians near to me and always a keen and usually hip crowd. That says nothing about the recorded music market though, especially the archive, which is a different question. Conversely there are folks here who seem not that much interested in contemporary music - but that's another topic.

[J.A.W.]

5 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Probably, yes.  But yet, I know there have been countless theoretical "proposed" Mosaic sets discussed here (and surely elsewhere).  I'm sure I could easily come up with every specific ideas for 10 sets I'd personally buy myself, and another 10 I'd at least be tempted to buy.  (None of which are probably the least bit commercially viable now -- and may have never been, perhaps, either -- even if they'd been more seriously contemplated 15-20 years ago.

A hell of a damn LOT of their mission was certainly accomplished, but I'd say that if market demand (and market forces) were difference, they could have been as much as TWICE as many sets that could have been produced (total) -- meaning AGAIN as many yet unproduced, as has been Mosaic's entire output to date.

That is in NO way meant to be a criticism (in any way, shape, or form).  Not suggesting for an instant that any "in our wildest dreams" sets were ever really possible.  But in a different universe, where there was many twice as much interest in jazz overall (among the general populace), coupled with a continued interest in buying things on physical media (like CD's), one could certainly conceive of any number of great sets that 'could have been'.

Over the years quite a few sets didn't happen due to licensing problems and licensing cost, and that included sets suggested by customers.

 

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

I would like to know what the problem/"problem" was with a Bill Barron set. Licensing issues? No photos on hand? An overriding mandate to get a Rosemary Clooney set out?

Bill Barron could have been their 21st Century Tina Brooks, except that there couldn't be the follow-up of single album Blue Note reissues.

Oh well, some Andulursian guy named Jordgie or something will work with what's already been done and put it all together for, like, $5.95, $4.95 if you pay with cash or Bitcoin.

If you are referring to Jordi Pujol, he's in Barcelona, Catalonia (or Catalunya in the local language), not Andalusia if that's what you meant. He founded and still owns Fresh Sound Records. Andorra is where many public-domain labels are based that some people think have links with Pujol.

[Hot Ptah]

3 hours ago, gmonahan said:

Yeah, I'm kind of an old guy too. And yet, jazz does seem to be flourishing among high school and college students in a large number of programs around the country. I wonder whether it isn't more a question of format. Most of us here (all of us?!) are into "physical media"--cds and vinyl--while the world has obviously switched to downloads. I just wonder where those younger jazz players "go" to talk about music. As for Mosaic, they need to stay in business till we get that damned Johnny Hodges 60s Verve set.......

 

 

gregmo

However, I have talked to a group of high school  jazz teachers who told me that their students have little or no interest in jazz when not playing it in the school program. They have told me that they have lectured on the history of jazz, shown DVDs in class of the greats playing the material that the school band is going to start playing, and have printed off articles about the music they are performing, and the musicians who originally played it. They all told me that virtually none of their students seemed interested at all.

[Brad]

However you cut it or dissect it, jazz listening/collecting is a graying market.  You can't get away from that. Scott put it best. 

Jazz is by no means unique. Other hobbies are having the same problems.  A few years ago I tried to sell my stamp collection. The dealer said you have nice stuff but I can't pay you much.  He said the hobby had shrunk and those who were in it were very picky. If we could get kids interested in the hobby, your collection would fetch a nice premium. We finished our conversation by his saying "no kids! We need the kids." 

[mjzee]

Lionel trains, too.  No kids, just a bunch of greying men.

As regards jazz (and music in general), there was a recent letter to the editor in The New Yorker that I thought was very perceptive.  It was in response to an article about prog rock: "Sanneh’s excellent survey of prog rock overlooked one explanation for why it came to dominate the United States mainstream in the seventies: its first fans were the last children of America’s peak middlebrow culture, whether or not they’d call it that. This was a generation reared on Liberace and regularly exposed to opera and classical performances alongside their pop idols on “The Ed Sullivan Show.” It’s perfectly logical that they would embrace a strain of rock that aspired to cultural and technical sophistication. With the disappearance of classical music from television, so went the ability to understand how anyone could like prog rock. For prog artists with lofty pretensions to high art, “middlebrow” may be the most stinging insult of all."

[JSngry]

Or just show up on the street and start playing, if that's legal where you live.

[Scott Dolan]

Commodification? 

Seriously?! 

If what the "young lions" are doing is meant strictly to sell units, I'd call that a failed endeavor. Jazz ain't exactly flying off the shelves. 

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I'd think it's safe to say "Smooth" Jazz still has the best sales these days. And even that has to barely be paying the bills. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[BFrank]

I think there's a new interest in jazz as personified by Kamasi Washington and groups like Snarky Puppy and their offshoots. I've been to shows by both that were packed ... with a large percentage of enthusiastic "young people."

[Hot Ptah]

I wonder if Kamasai was a flavor of the day.  I never hear about him any more. He is not touring to packed houses. I have heard what his live show was like at the height of his hit album's popularity. He did not try to reproduce onstage the elements which made his album popular. It sounded like a Pharoah Sanders small group concert. I think he missed his chance.

i just read an article that less than one per cent of pop music results in over 80 per cent of all streaming. No one is rushing to jazz these days.

i see zero evidence that young people are becoming jazz fans in any number. I have seen virtually none at any jazz concert I have attended in the past three years.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Hot Ptah

[Scott Dolan]

Same here, HP. Not say that Beefy hasn't seen younger audience members, but I'm not sure Snarky Puppy, as awesome S they are, are Jazz. Nor do I think they'd lead very many TO explore Jazz. 

I could be completely wrong, and would he quite happy to be, in this case. But like HP, I've seen no evidence that points to Jazz becoming more popular to younger generations. 

[medjuck]

6 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

I wonder if Kamasai was a flavor of the day.  I never hear about him any more. He is not touring to packed houses. I have heard what his live show was like at the height of his hit album's popularity. He did not try to reproduce onstage the elements which made his album popular. It sounded like a Pharoah Sanders small group concert. I think he missed his chance.

i just read an article that less than one per cent of pop music results in over 80 per cent of all streaming. No one is rushing to jazz these days.

i see zero evidence that young people are becoming jazz fans in any number. I have seen virtually none at any jazz concert I have attended in the past three years.

Washington has a pretty busy schedule.  http://www.kamasiwashington.com/   Also he had an installation at the Whitney Biennial.  My son thought it was the best thing there.  Had no idea that he was a well known musician and was surprised that I'd heard of him.  (The installation did have music as part of it.  Not sure if it has anything to do with his new record. )  

[Scott Dolan]

Pardon my ignorance of the term, but what is an "installation"?

[J.A.W.]

On ‎29‎-‎6‎-‎2017 at 3:03 AM, Captain Howdy said:

Oh, I don't expect Mosaic to be the only ones. I realize my hopes/expectations are beyond what any any one small business could practically accomplish. Even Rhino, with the corporate might of Atlantic behind them, folded in the end.

Rhino is still in business: Rhino

[jazzbo]

I think the Captain was referring to the fact that their "Handmade" series of archival releases is no longer.

[J.A.W.]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

I think the Captain was referring to the fact that their "Handmade" series of archival releases is no longer.

Maybe, but he was not specifically referring to their "Handmade" series, so I assumed he meant the label as such.

[edit] Just checked their site, and the "Handmade" series still seems to be alive: Rhino Handmade

Edited June 30, 2017 by J.A.W.

[JSngry]

Rhino will end up in the hands of that Anchorran pirate, Shordi Pulljo, I just know it.

[J.A.W.]

1 hour ago, Captain Howdy said:

 

Huh. No, I thought all of Rhino had shut down. I don't know why I was under that impression, but I thought Rhino was defunct and some of the guys in charge had gone on to start Shout Factory. Well, that's good to know.

Some of the Rhino guys did indeed leave and start Shout Factory in 2003, but Rhino did not fold, it continued under the wings of Warner Music, who also own Atlantic, Elektra, Asylum (and now also some ex-EMI labels such as Parlophone, EMI Classics and Virgin Classics) and probably one or two labels I forget. It was the Rhino retail store that went out of business; it wasn't part of Warner Music.

Edited June 30, 2017 by J.A.W.

[jlhoots]

19 hours ago, BFrank said:

I think there's a new interest in jazz as personified by Kamasi Washington and groups like Snarky Puppy and their offshoots. I've been to shows by both that were packed ... with a large percentage of enthusiastic "young people."

I wouldn't go to concerts by either of them / those, but I'm old!!!

[BFrank]

5 hours ago, jlhoots said:

I wouldn't go to concerts by either of them / those, but I'm old!!!

I think the discussion here was that "old people" are the only ones going to see jazz. 

16 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Same here, HP. Not say that Beefy hasn't seen younger audience members, but I'm not sure Snarky Puppy, as awesome S they are, are Jazz. Nor do I think they'd lead very many TO explore Jazz. 

I could be completely wrong, and would he quite happy to be, in this case. But like HP, I've seen no evidence that points to Jazz becoming more popular to younger generations. 

I'm not saying that younger fans are going to see the older musicians. I don't see them at those shows, either. But I think there IS a new generation of jazz or jazz-influenced artists out there who are appealing to younger audiences.

[OliverM]

20 hours ago, medjuck said:

Washington has a pretty busy schedule.  http://www.kamasiwashington.com/   Also he had an installation at the Whitney Biennial.  My son thought it was the best thing there.  Had no idea that he was a well known musician and was surprised that I'd heard of him.  (The installation did have music as part of it.  Not sure if it has anything to do with his new record. )  

I went to the Whitney Biennal during my visit to NYC in May and confirm it was some of his new music. One can read about it here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/13/arts/music/kamasi-washington-whitney-biennial-harmony-of-difference.html

It was fun to have a dark room with jazz being played in the midst of what was mainly visual art.

[OliverM]

6 hours ago, BFrank said:

I think the discussion here was that "old people" are the only ones going to see jazz. 

I'm not saying that younger fans are going to see the older musicians. I don't see them at those shows, either. But I think there IS a new generation of jazz or jazz-influenced artists out there who are appealing to younger audiences.

I would say the situation is mixed here in Paris. I'm 31 and have been going on a regular basis to jazz related concerts for five years, much less regularly before where I used to see more live rock. Some very commited older jazz fans always get the front seats and rarely miss a single concert for big names in free improvisation. But there is also generally a group of 20-30 year old people that come later and stands or sits behind, who might be less knowledgeable about the music's history but who enjoy it just as much. Some of them are musicians, others come also to hang out. The prices are more than reasonable for younger audiences, generally from 5 to 15 euros per concert. At one time, groups like Sonic Youth had an influence in bringing a part of their audience to jazz and there came a lot of dedicated fans out of that stream. I agree though that the conservative aspect of some jazz halls and current traditions can have a repelling effect, it is also the most visible part for people who have only a vague idea of the dynamics of the music. I started going to concerts when I discovered places like the Instants chavirés and stopped thinking that jazz was at the rue des Lombards to give a parisian example.

[jazzbo]

18 hours ago, J.A.W. said:

Maybe, but he was not specifically referring to their "Handmade" series, so I assumed he meant the label as such.

[edit] Just checked their site, and the "Handmade" series still seems to be alive: Rhino Handmade

It does not seem to have the same mission or output of the original Handmade. 

[Brad]

11 hours ago, jlhoots said:

I wouldn't go to concerts by either of them / those, but I'm old!!!

I've joined that club!

[mikeweil]

Maybe they will just slow down and reduce to one, maybe two new sets each year. I agree the CD boom era might be over, but who knows?