JSngry Posted March 2, 2004 Report Posted March 2, 2004 Saw a bigass stack of them at Borders today going for $9.99 a pop. Picked one up for the pictures, not the articles (as opposed to Playboy...). BUT - Whilst thumbing through the first copy I picked up, I noticed that some of the pages had been bound upside down! Let the jokes begin... Quote
couw Posted March 2, 2004 Report Posted March 2, 2004 come on jim, read the damn book! your life is too good, you need something to get frustrated about! Quote
PHILLYQ Posted March 2, 2004 Report Posted March 2, 2004 I have the book- I got it as a Christmas present from my wife. She meant well, but she's not a jazzaholic , so she didn't get my objections to the film when we watched it together. I read a few sections and had to put it down or I would've torn the book up into little pieces. The authors spent two pages doing nothing but ripping Keith Jarrett(KJ had the temerity to criticize Wynton Marsalis!), even to the point of inserting a racial angle into KJ's criticism. For $9.99 you could buy a decent cd of something that has more value, say, sound effects. The pages are set upside down so that you can appreciate Stanley Grouch's upside-down view of what jazz is & isn't! Quote
ghost of miles Posted March 2, 2004 Report Posted March 2, 2004 The authors spent two pages doing nothing but ripping Keith Jarrett(KJ had the temerity to criticize Wynton Marsalis!), even to the point of inserting a racial angle into KJ's criticism. That would be Gerald Early's piece. I have respect for Early's work elsewhere, but the editors allowed him to use that space to settle a score with Jarrett--one of the most irresponsible acts I've seen in terms of jazz publishing and scholarship. I got the book free as a review copy when it came out, and it does have some wonderful pictures. The Borders here also had them on remainder, so I picked one up for my mom. On the basis of the photographs I'd say $9.99 is a reasonable price. Quote
Dr. Rat Posted March 2, 2004 Report Posted March 2, 2004 Saw a bigass stack of them at Borders today going for $9.99 a pop. Picked one up for the pictures, not the articles (as opposed to Playboy...). BUT - Whilst thumbing through the first copy I picked up, I noticed that some of the pages had been bound upside down! Let the jokes begin... Also worth picking up for the pictures: Albert Murray's Stompin' the Blues. They're in B&W and not even glossy, but a nice collection of 20s and 30s photos and phonograhic art. The words not recommended for the more excitable amongst us, even if you do have time on your hands. --eric Quote
Jazzmoose Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 I have the book- I got it as a Christmas present from my wife. Yeah, I got mine that way. Bless her heart, she meant well, and the photos are cool... She did a lot better this past year, fortunately! Quote
Jim Alfredson Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 My wife bought me the Stanley Turrentine box for Christmas of 2002. She's the bomb! Quote
jazzbo Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 This book has been remaindered for over a year. Quote
Phil Meloy Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 Here in the UK it was nicknamed "Jazz the Obituary" Quote
Dr. Rat Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 This book has been remaindered for over a year. Only recently has it hit the dump, though. --eric Quote
John L Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 [ Also worth picking up for the pictures: Albert Murray's Stompin' the Blues. Stomping the Blues is essential reading as well, regardless of the degree to which you agree with the arguments in the book. Quote
neveronfriday Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 (edited) I understand all the criticism levelled at the Burns tome, but I think it is somewhat unfair to cite the pictures as the only merits of this book. There is an incredible amount of research evident and, IMHO, especially the early years are covered very well. That the sources used and cited (a bit too often) are opinionated is not exactly something which is exclusive to Burns, Burns's disciples and a book on jazz attempting to cover its entire history. That said, I think the book was not written for the rather limited marked of jazz afficionados, but for the general public. That we can find faults (some of them pretty hefty) is a given with a project like this. That the general public is misled in some important areas is very unfortunate, to say the least, but there are large parts of the book which give accurate information and deliver a very coherent and readable overview (and plenty of discussion opportunities). All in all, despite the problems I have with the book as well, I think some comments are a bit harsh. And I actually return to it often to just browse while listening to some good jazz. Cheers! [edit: typo, what else ... ] Edited March 3, 2004 by deus62 Quote
jazzbo Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 I agree with you D. It's quite an impressive book in many ways. It is NOT aimed at this audience as its target. And "opinion" is heavy everywhere in jazz writing. It's a plague! Many pointing fingers I find simply have a differing baggage of opinion behind them. Anyway, I bought one copy with a gift certificate to Tower from my dad, for the pictures and the facts within. Then the next year, Xmas 2002, he gave me a copy that he found remaindered! I gave that away to a friend. Quote
Simon Weil Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 I understand all the criticism levelled at the Burns tome, but I think it is somewhat unfair to cite the pictures as the only merits of this book. There is an incredible amount of research evident and, IMHO, especially the early years are covered very well. That the sources used and cited (a bit too often) are opinionated is not exactly something which is exclusive to Burns, Burns's disciples and a book on jazz attempting to cover its entire history. Yeah, but do you really understand all the criticism? Here's an article I wrote. The Burns thing is tendentious in its very core. Simon Weil Quote
neveronfriday Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 Yeah, but do you really understand all the criticism? No, man. That is just faaaaaaaaar too complicated. I think I'll wait for the Marvel illustrated version Here's an article I wrote. That one does not have any pictures. Cheers! Quote
Dr. Rat Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 tendentious Seems to be the word of the week, so: Pronunciation:  ten'denshus WordNet Dictionary  Definition: [adj] having or marked by a strong tendency especially a controversial one; "a tendentious account of recent elections"; "distinguishing between verifiable fact and tendentious assertion"  Synonyms: partisan, partizan, tendencious Next week: that word in the Evlyn Waugh quote in Conn's sig. Quote
Simon Weil Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 Yeah, but do you really understand all the criticism? No, man. That is just faaaaaaaaar too complicated. I think I'll wait for the Marvel illustrated version Here's an article I wrote. That one does not have any pictures. Cheers! Yeah, well. In order to fully understand this response... Buy a copy of "Band of Brothers" and watch Carwood Lipton's response to Foxhole Norman after FN has got him into a conversation he didn't want to be in and then abruptly walked off. Ah, I love Burns debates. Simon Weil Quote
TedR Posted March 3, 2004 Report Posted March 3, 2004 I haven't read any Burns'debates. From what I can tell there seems to be near unanimous condemnation of "Jazz". Have civil war and baseball bulletin boards criticized his work too? Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted March 4, 2004 Report Posted March 4, 2004 Have civil war and baseball bulletin boards criticized his work too? The baseball series was ripped by all my sports friends. Quote
Nate Dorward Posted March 4, 2004 Report Posted March 4, 2004 Yeah, just get my wife & her SABR buddies going on it.... (That's Society of American Baseball Research, for you non-Bill James freaks.) Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted March 4, 2004 Report Posted March 4, 2004 The big problem with these Burns projects is they get "taken as the truth" by millions of "ditto-heads". "Truth" soon become "facts". Quote
neveronfriday Posted March 4, 2004 Report Posted March 4, 2004 (edited) Yeah, but do you really understand all the criticism? No, man. That is just faaaaaaaaar too complicated. I think I'll wait for the Marvel illustrated version Here's an article I wrote. That one does not have any pictures. Cheers! Yeah, well. In order to fully understand this response... Buy a copy of "Band of Brothers" and watch Carwood Lipton's response to Foxhole Norman after FN has got him into a conversation he didn't want to be in and then abruptly walked off. Ah, I love Burns debates. Simon Weil Luckily, I've had the box. Took me quite a while to find the scene you mentioned though. Re the response: Re the Burns debate: To be quite honest, I thought the way you invited me to to join in on this debate could have been phrased a little differently. After a bad day, which it was for me, I just decided right there and then to just misunderstand your question. And, I did read your article. I agree with many a thesis in there, but your argument(s) are not exactly new - they are just more condensed and coherent. And yes, now that you left me that road of escape, I would just stick with Lipton's response in a more general sense. I'm simply tired of the debate as well as of some people who are desperately trying to prove a racial angle and a revisionist stance, both of which are blatantly obvious in the first place. I ask myself what the point is? Any discerning reader, especially one that frequents this board and others, must have noticed this and doesn't need to be told in a million different ways What we have then is a debate from which I get the impression that there are a lot of participants who seemingly have an axe to grind. Just by reading this thread here we can see that it has been a rather pointless debate, because once we all thought it was over and the claims had been staked out, it is just started all over again. I ask myself what the point of that is? Cheers! [edit: typo] Edited March 4, 2004 by deus62 Quote
brownie Posted March 4, 2004 Report Posted March 4, 2004 Have civil war and baseball bulletin boards criticized his work too? The baseball series was ripped by all my sports friends. Watched the Burns Baseball series. The idea was to start to understand what baseball was all about. I watched the Burns and still have not a clue what baseball is all about. But I'm still waiting for the Jazz series to be shown on French TV. At least I know a bit about what jazz is about. Or do I? Quote
paul secor Posted March 5, 2004 Report Posted March 5, 2004 (edited) I actually enjoy Burns' Baseball series. I feel that it captures a lot of the spirit of the game. There may be things that one can quibble about in it, but overall I feel that it was well done and enjoyable to watch. I've actually seen it maybe twenty times, since a co-worker and I bring our videos of it to work and play it there now and again. All I can say about the jazz series (since I couldn't stomach watching much of it) is that Wynton Marsalis ain't no Buck O'Neil. Edited March 7, 2004 by paul secor Quote
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