Horrendous shipping & handling costs ...

[neveronfriday]

... with Mosaic sets.

Hi everyone,

this is what happened (if this has been posted elsewhere, please forgive me. I usually skip the shipment trouble threads. I know I shouldn't have).

When I ordered my Teddy Wilson set directly from Mosaic, I selected the speediest shipment method. I did not read any fine print and I guess that was just my bad.

The Teddy Wilson set was delivered shortly thereafter, on January 26th of this year. very fast.

Today, on the 2nd of March I receive a bill sent to me by the German handler of the shipment. Apparently, because the shipment came from the States, they received it, carried it to customs, filled out some papers and, after it was determined that NO fees whatsoever were going to be asked by anyone (neither the EU nor the German government), the shipment was forwarded to me.

Now I have to pay Euro 21,36 to General Logistics Systems (GLS) in Germany for them filling out the customs papers.

So, in fact I'm paying more than double the advertised shipment fee, which exceeds (almost) the price of the Mosaic set.

And, to top it off: I ordered the Blue Mitchell set not so long ago. Now I'm awaiting another bill for the same amount of money.

If this is in fact legal, etc., I certainly won't order again.

Ever.

Cheers!

P.S.: I have written to Mosaic about this, but the way it was explained to me by GLS, there is not much that can be done and it was my bad. I'll post here what Mosaic tells me, but Germans (and maybe others), heed the warnings if you are first-time customers.

And, I'm absolutely sure this is not Mosaic's fault. They have splendid service. This is the usual rip-off service we have gotten used to in Germany (and other parts of Europe) and, if I understand crrectly, my fault for not reading the fine print.

Order by surface mail and save yourself a lot of trouble.

[JohnS]

Sorry Deus, but that's the way it is. Local taxes are payable for items valued over a certain amount plus a handling fee. They are still due even if sent by surface post but, in the UK at least surface items stand a better chance of getting through customs without charge. Even so I still go for speed.

Edited March 2, 2004 by JohnS

[neveronfriday]

Sorry Deus,  but that's the way it is.  Local taxes are payable for items valued over a certain amount plus a handling fee.  They are still due even if sent by surface post but, in the UK at least surface items stand a better chance of getting through customs without charge.  Even so I still go for speed.

Yes, but no fees were charged.

This is a fee charged by the shipping company for finding out that no fees will be charged by the governmen etc., for filling out one piece of paper.

So, I pay Mosaic for handling and the German company again for handling.

Again, nobody wanted any taxes or import fees of any kind.

Cheers!

[edit: I actually payed Euro 22 for one smeered stamp which says that nobody will charge anything extra. Almost funny.)

Edited March 2, 2004 by deus62

[Rooster_Ties]

I've been searching around on Mosaic's website, and can't find any "fine print" about shipping, other than this:

Shipping Features

United States & Puerto Rico: 

 

Purchase Value === Shipping 

$1- $50 === $5

$50.01-$100 === $8

$100.01-$150 === $10

$150.01- $200 === $12

$200.01 - $300 === $14

$300.01-$99999 === $16

Canada: 

 

Purchase Value  === Shipping 

Up to $100 === $10.00

$101 - $200 === $13.00

$201 - $300 === $16.00

Over $300 === $20.00

International:

 

Purchase Value === Shipping by Surface [6-10 weeks] 

Up to $100 === $12.00

$101 - $200 === $18.00

$201 - $300 === $25.00

Over $300 === $35.00

Purchase Value === US Airmail [3-5 weeks] 

Up to $100 === $23.00

$101 - $200 === $30.00

$201 - $300 === $35.00

Over $300 === $45.00

Purchase Value === Airborne Express [1-3 weeks] 

Up to $100 === $23.00

$101 - $200 === $30.00

$201 - $300 === $35.00

Over $300 === $45.00

I don't see anything about possible additional "shipping" charges on the receiving end. Man, I would not pay one bit of those weird "additional shipping charges" until you look into this a whole lot further. Something smells fishy to me.

[neveronfriday]

Fishy.

Indeed.

I even talked to the management. They hung up on me when I asked for a copy of the contract telling them to charge this fee in the name of Mosaic.

A**holes.

And typically German.

Cheers!

[J.A.W.]

Isn't there a consumer organization in Germany you can ask to sort it out for you? We have several in the Netherlands (some on national TV) and they're quite effective; those companies are scared to death of 'em... B)

[neveronfriday]

I've gotta go attend a meeting and won't be back until much later, but shortly this:

Yes, we do have those organizations. And yes, they are often quite effective.

I can just do without the hassle. I ordered from Mosaic so I wouldn't have any of that and payed a substantial amount of money to avoid it. I'm just generally pissed off. I think that sums it up pretty well.

Cheers!

Later ...

[rockefeller center]

I had an episode with GLS last year. These guys almost made me throw a brick into their office (they got their act together in the last minute).

[JohnS]

Yes, but no fees were charged.

This is a fee charged by the shipping company for finding out that no fees will be charged by the governmen etc., for filling out one piece of paper.

So, I pay Mosaic for handling and the German company again for handling.

Again, nobody wanted any taxes or import fees of any kind.

Cheers!

[edit: I actually payed Euro 22 for one smeered stamp which says that nobody will charge anything extra. Almost funny.)

Agreed then, that's a real bummer.

[king ubu]

deus, this shit happened to me once - not with a Mosaic order, if I remember right, but with a rather big one from CDConnection or some other US seller.

I did not do anything about it (except paying that bill), and felt rather bad about it, afterwards. Switzerland is the worst place to live for a jazz freak! We do produce hat, but hell, they sell it for 25 Euros here!

ubu

[neveronfriday]

I had an episode with GLS last year. These guys almost made me throw a brick into their office (they got their act together in the last minute).

What was your weapon of choice?

How do I get them to kneel in the dust?

Need more details.

Cheers!

[neveronfriday]

Switzerland is the worst place to live for a jazz freak! We do produce hat, but hell, they sell it for 25 Euros here!

ubu

We have Gerhard Schröder.

Nothing and nobody can beat that one.

But those CD prices get pretty darn close.

[tjobbe]

Hi deus,

I assume that its the 5CD box you've ordered... so lets calculate some numbers..

80US$ *16% Einfuhrumsatzsteuer (the VAT for imported non VAT goods) + customs assume 9% = 20US$ that your freight forwarder has already paid on your behalf.. the rest to your amount payed to GLS is the fee that they charge for handling this which normally 10% of the amount they deduct to german customs..

so all in all I would not worry here .. I would assume that even GL Shas added some sheet where they calculate more in depth what position your invoice has.

The tag on your box saying "no further fees" means in taht case that GLS has already paid them on your behave...

Cheers, Tjobbe

[Claude]

Hi Deus,

As has been stated above, it's the private carriers that rip you off with their handling fees. The customs taxes are a maximum of 20% of the value of the goods , in my country (15% VAT + 3% customs, rounded up) . If the package is shipped by the postal service only, you will have to pay the customs tax but no handling fees.

I have had a very bad experience with Fedex on such a shipment. In addition to their enormous customs handling fees (20 Euro for a 3CD shipment) they miscalculated (doubled) the tax. I asked them several times by email to correct it (and they agreed by email), but through letters they sent me warnings by an "Inkasso" company and a lawyer. I resisted and at the end they recalculated the correct amount. The whole argument lasted for 5 months. It was about 10 Euro and the whole procedure must have cost them much more than that.

Now I try to avoid shipments by private carriers. Another advantage of the postal service is that private carriers tend to do the customs declaration every time (because they make money from that) whereas the postal service often lets shipments pass without charging customs tax, if the value is 50 Euro and less (tax is due from 20 Euro on).

Edited March 3, 2004 by Claude

[mikeweil]

This happened to me two years ago, when I ordered the Thad Jones and Sam Rivers sets along with some rare items from True Blue. Air Mail delivery, of course. I was charged an additional 50 or so EURO for customs, VAT and handling.

It depends on the delivery method. Surface mail is handled by the postal services themselves, and they charge the appropriate customs and VAT without any charge for them handling the parcel. Airmail deliveries are handled by special companies chosen by German or whatever postal service, but they do not get paid by them and thus have to charge their own fees.

I chose surface mail delivery ever since, it is still fast enough for me, no longer than 3 weeks, more often less than two weeks, and reliable, and a lot cheaper.

At least we have the exchange rates on our side, the advantage of the EURO about pays for the shipping if you choose surface mail.

[LAL]

Agree with Claude on this. My experience with major courier companies is that parcels ALWAYS arrive with customs duties attached plus a bill (naturally!) from the courier for related costs (always exorbidant). With the postal service however, parcels arrive without all these redundant and infuriating costs. The drawback of course is delivery by post can take 2-4 times longer and can't be tracked. I have since boycotted couriers and chosen delivery by normal post 100% of the time - the exception being for Mosaic sets.

[neveronfriday]

Hi deus,

I assume that its the 5CD box you've ordered... so lets calculate some numbers..

80US$ *16% Einfuhrumsatzsteuer (the VAT for imported non VAT goods) + customs assume 9% = 20US$ that your freight forwarder has already paid on your behalf.. the rest to your amount payed to GLS is the fee that they charge for handling this which normally 10% of the amount they deduct to german customs..

so all in all I would not worry here .. I would assume that even GL Shas added some sheet where they calculate more in depth what position your invoice has.

The tag on your box saying "no further fees" means in taht case that GLS has already paid them on your behave...

Cheers, Tjobbe

Sorry, but no.

Because the green sticker (or whatever colour) affixed to the package listed a lower item value, NO TAXES, IMPORT FEES OR ANYTHING ELSE were charged.

The fee is ONLY the fee charged by the shipping company for finding out that NOTHING would be charged by anyone (the shipping company, of course, which seems to make a killing off these and thousands of similar shipments by doing the paperwork only, charges tons of money to unsuspecting customers).

Again, only the shipping company charged money and did not have to pay anything to anyone.

Cheers!

[neveronfriday]

Let me summarize what's been said so far by others and add one (maybe unpopular) thought.

Summary:

1) Avoid fast delivery from Mosaic at all costs so you don't get stuck with more than double the shipping and handling fee annnounced on their site.

2) Whenever you can, avoid private carriers like the plague. They rip you off.

Thought:

Like many (most/all?) of the members of this board, I regularly order stuff on the Internet or from various mail order dealers and have done so for more than 25 years.

Of the hundreds, no, actually over a thousand or more shipments (I have several thousand books which were ordered from the States since the beginning of the 80s), this was the FIRST time I ever had to pay a sum like this (actually twice, since both Mosaic and the shipping company cashed in their part of the sum) to satisfy both ends of the shipment chain.

Keeping this in mind, Mosaic Records is clearly doing something wrong, knowingly or unknowingly leaving the customer at the mercy of some totally remote shipping company and leaving it up to the customer to handle any extra fees. I say this because I've gotten quite a few PMs describing similar/identical problems.

In my eyes, Mosaic is at fault because of bad judgement when it comes to selecting the carrier.

Other companies/dealers simply don't have this problem.

Because I do have to keep my money together somewhat (so I can afford the actual CDs), this means that I'm simply not going to order anymore from a company that can't get its shipment arrangements straightened out.

No matter if selecting the slower postal route is safer (which is a laugh in itself) and cheaper. No matter how good their service is (and I do not have any other complaints at all - quite to the contrary, Mosaic is top-notch in all other departments), that was it for me. There are enough other companies producing excellent stuff, at better prices and much lower shipment costs.

Cheers!

[Claude]

I don't think it has something to do with Mosaic. I've ordered 7 sets from them (value $40-200 per shipping) and always chose the cheapest option, which is surface mail. The boxes came by airmail anyway (2-3 weeks) and I had no customs tax to pay, because Mosaic indicated a value of $5 per CD.

I was ripped off two times by private carriers:

1) A Mosaic set I had bought on Ebay from a US seller. I have no idea what carrier he chose and which value he indicated on the customs declaration ($350 was the winning bid). The package arrived at Frankfurt airport where the customs declaration was made. Maybe that is why it arrived at my address by a german parcel carrier, who then charged me handling fees.

2) I had ordered 3 CDs from Acoustic Sounds and they chose Fedex to send them, without asking me. Fedex charged me handling fees.

With all other CD orders from the US, I chose airmail and never had a problem. I receive the packages through regular mail, which means that if I'm not at home when they arrive (which is usually the case) I can pick them up at my local post office and don't need to contact the carrier to deliver it to an alternative address. In most cases I didn't have to pay customs taxes at all.

This page in french from the customs administration in Luxembourg explains the principle of customs tax for small (<350 Euro) shipments. It says that if the shipping comes from the US it is possible that part of the handling is done by private companies, who can charge handling fees (30 Euro + VAT), and apply different customs tarifs (the postal service charges a simplified unitary tarif). At the bottom of the page, it gives an example where 91 Euro fees have to be paid for a $230 package of clothing. With postal delivery it would have been 37 Euro.

Edited March 3, 2004 by Claude

[tjobbe]

but as said Claude.. in the given example the 91 Euro are for VAT+Customs and the amount (30+/-) the carrier charges...

The privat carrier always pays the the VAT/Custom fees upfront and you need to refund him for this as well as pay the handling charges..

If German Post delivers instead they do not charge handling but the VAT/Custom has also been payed by them upfront which they will wantr you to pay for (but sometimes the postman forgets....)

Cheers, Tjobbe

Edited March 3, 2004 by tjobbe

[neveronfriday]

[Edit: I'm referring to Claude's post above]

I beg to differ when it comes to selecting speedy delivery on the Mosaic site.

According to the managment of the company in question, Mosaic is required to clearly state that additional fees might be charged in the recipients' country. I do not recall any information like that, but as I posted earlier, I did not walk through the entire ordering process again to see if anything could be found (probably at the very end). Like I also said before, it is probably my own fault.

Secondly, I do not believe that a company has no control over who handles their goods. Even if they only know the American end of things, they should, in a contract or whatever, have information that these kinds of fees might be charged to the recipient - their customer(s).

Thirdly, I find it surprising that I never had to pay any fees of this kind (and believe me, I've bled in other departments these past twenty-something years and have learned many a lesson). This leads me to believe that this might be an error of judgement on Mosaic's part.

Fourthly, I'll pay up, forget about it and order my CDs elsewhere. Just looking to France regularly, to Scandinavia or elsewhere, it is not difficult to find interesting and HQ stuff to relieve the pain of going cold turkey on Mosaic sets. And, hey, I have enough hassle as it is and don't need some half-assed company (I'm referring to the shipping company here) to turn what is supposed to be a nice experience into a frustrating one.

Cheers!

Edited March 3, 2004 by deus62

[mikeweil]

I basically agree with what Claude says, once it is shipped this way it is out of their hands and they cannot do anything about it - but they should be aware and could point this out to their customers, as a disclaimer of sorts. I think it has something to do with the different paths parcels shipped by mail or courier services take - and of course the official regulations that apply.

It appears contradictory to me that higher shipping charges generate even higher charges upon receipt.

[JohnS]

I've just received the Mosaic Tristano/Konitz/Marsh box. The declared value is $30.00. Borderline for charging. If I'm charged I'll get an invoice in a few days from the couriers. There is never any indication at the time of delivery.

My experience with USPS airmail parcel service has been good, delivery normally within a week.

[tjobbe]

It appears contradictory to me that higher shipping charges generate even higher charges upon receipt.

you have to pay Tax/VAT on the shipping charges too.. so its "normal" that the higher the charges are the higher the tax and handling fees to get.

I normally order everything with gound shipping to avoid this as best as I can (although you then have tracking issues as well as probs to get your stuff in timely manner)

I personally have had good experience when ordering some PDA and electronic equipment but that shop offered some "choices" which carrier to use (as well as giving themselve some recommendation which is the cheapest in terms of handling fees)

Cheers, Tjobbe

[mikeweil]

deus, I read your post only after posting mine and basically agree with you, they should be informed and put a warning on their page with the shipping charges or elsewhere.