John Patton Corner

[robertoart]

I wonder if the reason "Got a good thing goin'" came out before "Let 'em roll" was BN being bounced into it, because they were told that Patton and Green had recorded "The yodel" for Atlantic a few weeks earlier, with Grassella Oliphant. Ironically, Atlantic didn't issue "The grass is greener" until early 1968.

MG

Yes that sounds like it could have been the case, and it does make sense that Big John must have spent some time developing his conception towards that beautiful and open modal thing that was captured on the Certain Feeling session. I wonder if the trio with Pharoh Sanders, mentioned by John Zorn in the Boogaloo liner notes was in 67-8 or maybe closer to 69-70.

Edited January 18, 2007 by freelancer

[andybleaden]

Interesting about the break. Not really thought about that too much but he was not alone was he in having a blue note career break at that time. Still there is such a difference beterrn the two styles ...hmmm...might just have to nip down and pull out the two and do a time warp thing

[robertoart]

Still makes nearly 2 years between recording sessions for Big John. Would the Liberty takeover have played a part in that perhaps.

Soul stream would be better able to answer that, but I think the difference between "Let 'em roll" and "Certain feeling" is quite huge and indicates a lot of work on John Patton's part. There was a complete break with his former colleagues (partly because GG was out of it) and a radically different approach

MG

As MG said, there is a HUGE breakthrough stylistically for John between the recording of Got A Good Thing Going and That Certain Feeling. I would describe GGTG as the last chapter in Big John's initial style. That Certain Feeling started a WHOLE 'nother thing. The musical feeling from that point on 'til the end of his life was much more open and free. His harmonic concept really opened up and as John loved to say..."put the whammy on you!"

He covered a LOT of ground those two years, and I think the break with Grant really shows that he was developing his concept with other people. Here's a quote from John about that time....

John Patton, Feb. 2000 "There was something I wanted to capture in hearing Elvin play.... It was just another level that I wanted to try to get to. I had this concept of wanting to play feer, man, you know."

Also, 1967 was the year John began a 6 year relationship with the Nation of Islam, taking the name Ya Ya (although he never used the name professionally). I think this also played a part in his musical sensibilities at the time.

Well the man got there alright.

But YA YA ya can't be serious. That's the funiest conversion name I've ever heard. Does that mean that Blood Ulmer was calling Big John Ya-Ya when he was in the band.

[Soul Stream]

Well the man got there alright.

But YA YA ya can't be serious. That's the funiest conversion name I've ever heard. Does that mean that Blood Ulmer was calling Big John Ya-Ya when he was in the band.

I don't think John ever used the name. Grant Green also had a Muslim name although, to my knowledge, nobody has been able to uncover what it was. Ben Dixon is still a practicing Muslim. John never told me he used it one way or another. Although, I do dig Ya Ya.

[robertoart]

Yeh, Ya Ya makes me smile. In fact it kinda sounds just right somehow. I got to meet Blood Ulmer about ten years ago when he toured here and I know his band called him Damu. It would have been good to have asked him about his memories playing and recording with Big John. That track Bloodyun on Memphis to New York is so damn catchy.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yeh, Ya Ya makes me smile. In fact it kinda sounds just right somehow. I got to meet Blood Ulmer about ten years ago when he toured here and I know his band called him Damu. It would have been good to have asked him about his memories playing and recording with Big John. That track Bloodyun on Memphis to New York is so damn catchy.

Yaya is a Mandinke name. I have a couple of albums by Yaya Bangoura (aka El Bango). And don't forget, one of the tracks on "Memphis to New York Spirit" is "The Mandingo".

I didn't know about John being called Yaya before, but I can see it makes sense.

MG

[Soul Stream]

Also Jack DeJohnette lived with John Patton for 7 months in 1966. Jack played with John during that time and Patton really credits DeJohnette with helping to open him up musically. Jack is a hell of a piano player and showed John a lot of stuff in that time.

[JSngry]

One day the jazz world will catch up to what John was all about.

And then what will happen?

[JSngry]

And oh yeah, I love BJP too, very much, always have and always will. One of the hippest organists (hell, musicians) ever. Agree that his depth is often and easily overlooked. It's just that everytime I hear these "Some day so-and-so's greatness will be appreciated" things, I just gotta wonder what difference it's gonna make when/if it is this/that much after the fact. I mean, on the whole, people still aren't hip to the true depth of Bird, and if one day they ever are, what difference is it going to make except that more people will be hip to one of the premier geniuses of the 20th Century - who died in 1955?

Life goes on. Those who know proceed accordingly. Those who don't, hey. Either way, ain't no turning back the clock and making a wrong right and then starting over.

[Soul Stream]

And oh yeah, I love BJP too, very much, always have and always will. One of the hippest organists (hell, musicians) ever. Agree that his depth is often and easily overlooked. It's just that everytime I hear these "Some day so-and-so's greatness will be appreciated" things, I just gotta wonder what difference it's gonna make when/if it is this/that much after the fact. I mean, on the whole, people still aren't hip to the true depth of Bird, and if one day they ever are, what difference is it going to make except that more people will be hip to one of the premier geniuses of the 20th Century - who died in 1955?

Life goes on. Those who know proceed accordingly. Those who don't, hey. Either way, ain't no turning back the clock and making a wrong right and then starting over.

I agree Jim. It's not so much that I'm waiting for the average joe or jazz listener to appreciate what Patton was doing. I just wish (well, yeah Scott Yanow comes to mind ) that people who represent the hardcore jazz community and presswould appreciate John a little more. We hear Larry Young's name bantered about and then that's it. A guy like Bob Beldon or Michael Cuscuna's appreciation counts for a lot. And they've both done quite a bit in elevating the awareness. If not for them, a couple of John's greatest sessions may not have ever been heard (Memphis to NY Spirit). Hell, maybe you have to be an organ player to REALLY know how different and deep he was. You might could cop some Larry Young and be a pretty good impersonater (I've heard a LOT of guys do it). But try copping Memphis or Steno with any authenticity. I haven't heard anybody even close. Maybe they're not trying. I think of everyone, Larry Goldings is the closest to have picked up on what Patton was sending out. Both are music-based, not lick-based organists. Very tough.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Hell, maybe you have to be an organ player to REALLY know how different and deep he was.

Much though I respect your views, Soulstream - and I really DO - that is a bleeding terrible thing to say about a musician one admires. What you're saying is, "he wasn't good enough to communicate with the whole world". Well I don't believe it.

MG

[Soul Stream]

Hell, maybe you have to be an organ player to REALLY know how different and deep he was.

Much though I respect your views, Soulstream - and I really DO - that is a bleeding terrible thing to say about a musician one admires. What you're saying is, "he wasn't good enough to communicate with the whole world". Well I don't believe it.

MG

I guess what I really meant by that MG is that there are a certain amount of technical aspects that John excelled at. These wouldn't be apparent to a listener in general. For instance, some of his organ basslines are the most difficult ever recorded as far as their rhythmic demands for left and right hands. These are especially true from "Let 'Em Roll" on. Songs such as Latona, Early A.M., Man From Tanganyika....the counter rhythms of the bass patterns are just more difficult than anything Larry Young or Groove Holmes ever did in that department.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Hell, maybe you have to be an organ player to REALLY know how different and deep he was.

Much though I respect your views, Soulstream - and I really DO - that is a bleeding terrible thing to say about a musician one admires. What you're saying is, "he wasn't good enough to communicate with the whole world". Well I don't believe it.

MG

I guess what I really meant by that MG is that there are a certain amount of technical aspects that John excelled at. These wouldn't be apparent to a listener in general. For instance, some of his organ basslines are the most difficult ever recorded as far as their rhythmic demands for left and right hands. These are especially true from "Let 'Em Roll" on. Songs such as Latona, Early A.M., Man From Tanganyika....the counter rhythms of the bass patterns are just more difficult than anything Larry Young or Groove Holmes ever did in that department.

OK - I see what you mean. Though I think should try to make their technique transparent to the listener. Er, unnoticeable, that is.

MG

[andybleaden]

I guess that that is the same with many artists.

I think what I love to read and see and witness is the growing appreciation of Big John Patton's music by other musicians.

I feel his technique was markedly different than many other organists in many different ways as it demonstrated across the Blue Note output or in his releases in the 80's and 90's

Edited March 27, 2007 by andybleaden

[donald byrd 4 EVA]

BJP 4 EVA!

[Aggie87]

BJP 4 EVA!

[sidewinder]

BJP 4 EVA!

Extra-vehicular activity?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

how dare u connotate some sort of link or connection between bjp and larry freakin goldings. how dare u

[donald byrd 4 EVA]

BJP 4 EVA

BOBBI HUMPHREY 4 EVA 2!

[JSngry]

[Eric]

I was listening to the "Hammond Heroes" CD this am - it was a complilation of organ tracks in the "Acid Jazz" series from Fantasy.

Anyway - I was playing "guess the organist" - and WOW - BJP really hit me with just a few notes. It was actually a Red Holloway tune (Crib Theme). What a special sound and way with the notes! Of course that is the point of this thread, but put me down for a "HELL YEAH"!

[Guest donald petersen]

for such a complex musician, bjp had some annoying licks he seemed to use a lot.

and a lot of his compositions sound the same.

but then again i return to his albums more than other organists because he uses interesting sidemen which i think makes everything sound more interesting than it really is.

[donald byrd 4 EVA]

ms. longoria is quite something, isnt she. are you sure you're not listening to joey defrancesco, donaldo?

[Guest donald petersen]

ms. longoria is quite something, isnt she. are you sure you're not listening to joey defrancesco, donaldo?

db4-you nuts? i would never listen to anything put out by that mulleted schmoe.

Edited March 30, 2007 by donald petersen

[Guest donald petersen]

sorry i was heated by DB4's comments. i changed it.

sorry.