RVG cd remasters

[Dmitry]

A couple of years ago I bought an original BN stereo Sidewinder LP for $7, scratched vinyl, both labels well worn in the areas surrounding the spindle hole, a sure sign of being played many-many times. Cover taped up, basically a G/maybe VG at best. Not expecting to hear anything great, I put it in my "to listen at some point in the future" pile, until yesterday, when it's time had come.  

After giving it a it a good cleaning in the ultrasonic bath and then a final spin on my Loricraft, I dropped the needle on it. Sure, background noise, clicks and pops, but nothing terrible, especially considering that the music is pretty loud, with few quiet passages. Those old Blue Notes were surely made well, with thick, deep grooves. The sound, for all of it's unappealing appearance, was pretty darn decent. Wide stereo spread, Lee on the right, Henderson on the left. If anything, Joe Henderson was better recorded than Lee.

For highly scientific purposes I pulled out the cd counterpart of this record, one of my first RVGs from way back in 1998. Well,..the sound of it is not very good. There is almost no stereo, I'd describe the remaster as a "wide mono", for some reason Lee is switched from the right channel to the left one, consequently Joe Henderson is moved to the right. Lee's trumpet is at almost ear-bleeding levels. Old vinyl is so much better than the RVG CD, that I begin to doubt my set-up, so I pull out the early 1980s Toshiba-EMI LP reissue, and , voila, it sounds similar to the original BN stereo. Same wide spread, similar tonal map, but less aggressive. Overall I preferred the original  to the Toshiba-EMI, but not by as huge a margin as vs. the CD. I wonder what drove RVG to compile a remaster like that...wasn't there any quality control to the process. Guess I'm keeping that beat-up original pressing. Those are usually still a great bang for the buck, and make for good listening copies.

Will continue comparing the RVGs to records. It's fun.

[felser]

2 hours ago, Dmitry said:

I wonder what drove RVG to compile a remaster like that...wasn't there any quality control to the process.

Quality control?  Who would have wanted the job of telling RVG that he was getting the Blue Note sound all wrong?

[JSngry]

8 hours ago, felser said:

Quality control?  Who would have wanted the job of telling RVG that he was getting the Blue Note sound all wrong?

Alfred Lion?

[Steve Gray]

Maybe something to do with RVG losing his hearing as he got older.

[Dmitry]

4 hours ago, Steve Gray said:

Maybe something to do with RVG losing his hearing as he got older.

That is certainly a possibility, in my opinion also.

This article, from way back, describes the process, as it was seen then -

http://jazztimes.com/articles/19873-rvg-blue-note-editions-pro-or-conned

[Ted O'Reilly]

14 hours ago, JSngry said:

Alfred Lion?

An amusing thought, but didn't Alfred Lion completely separate himself from Blue Note after selling it in the late '60s?

And I think Lion's been vastly overlooked in the whole "Adore RvG sound" sweepstakes.  Lion was the producer, likely telling the recording engineer the sound he wanted.  RvG-engineered sessions on labels other than Blue Note most often sound quite different than Lion-produced sessions.

Here's a very detailed bio of Alfred Lion:  http://immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=112

Edited October 5, 2016 by Ted O'Reilly
...to add bio information.

[felser]

1 hour ago, Ted O'Reilly said:

RvG-engineered sessions on labels other than Blue Note most often sound quite different than Lion-produced sessions.

You're right about that, for sure.

[JSngry]

Lion went to the mastering sessions, it it said. Alfred Lion WAS the Blue Note Sound.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Certainly true. However, I've always thought it more important that he left the supervision of the rehearsals, which he always insisted was a vital element of the Blue Note product, as they enabled bang on playing of the tunes and ensemble passages, to Ike Quebec, then Duke Pearson. To me, that means that it was Quebec and Pearson who really produced those albums, because the rehearsals determined what should be played and how.

I don't think he was wrong because a) he got top quality musicians to do that work and b) he saw that it was essential for a musician to be in charge of it.

MG

[Ted O'Reilly]

7 hours ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

Certainly true. However, I've always thought it more important that he left the supervision of the rehearsals, which he always insisted was a vital element of the Blue Note product, as they enabled bang on playing of the tunes and ensemble passages, to Ike Quebec, then Duke Pearson. To me, that means that it was Quebec and Pearson who really produced those albums, because the rehearsals determined what should be played and how.

I don't think he was wrong because a) he got top quality musicians to do that work and b) he saw that it was essential for a musician to be in charge of it.

MG

Very true.  But I was referring to the SOUND of the Blue Notes, and that was Lion more that RvG, I think...

[JSngry]

I doubt I'll buy any more Blue Note vinyl, but have bought plenty (no big deal about that, just a function of chronology), and I'm not getting rid of any of it either. It's a different sound than a RVG/etc, for sure. I'll leave the arguments about which of all them is "better", but if the argument will be that it is not different, that would be just fucking crazy.

[Teasing the Korean]

I think the narrowed stereo on the CDs was an attempt to get the levels and balance closer to the mono versions.  The sessions were apparently monitored in mono, the mono masters of the LPs were made from the stereo versions, and the stereo masters represented more of a byproduct of the mono masters rather than the final version.  

Edited October 8, 2016 by Teasing the Korean

[CJ Shearn]

On 10/8/2016 at 9:29 PM, Teasing the Korean said:

I think the narrowed stereo on the CDs was an attempt to get the levels and balance closer to the mono versions.  The sessions were apparently monitored in mono, the mono masters of the LPs were made from the stereo versions, and the stereo masters represented more of a byproduct of the mono masters rather than the final version.  

Agreed on that, TTK.  I still have many RVG's, I only upgraded to the SHM CD's or hi res titles that really needed it IMO (Shorter "Speak No Evil", "Soothsayer", Blakey "Mosaic", Dolphy "Out to Lunch", Hancock "Empyrean Isles)  but one thing I can say, the RVG series enabled me to get a lot of titles I missed the first time around in their initial CD versions. Whatever sounds good to each person is the factor in upgrading or not.

Edited October 10, 2016 by CJ Shearn

[Teasing the Korean]

10 hours ago, CJ Shearn said:

Agreed on that, TTK.  I still have many RVG's, I only upgraded to the SHM CD's or hi res titles that really needed it IMO (Shorter "Speak No Evil", "Soothsayer", Blakey "Mosaic", Dolphy "Out to Lunch", Hancock "Empyrean Isles)  but one thing I can say, the RVG series enabled me to get a lot of titles I missed the first time around in their initial CD versions. Whatever sounds good to each person is the factor in upgrading or not.

I always play stereo Blue Note albums - regardless of which mastering - in mono.  It typically brings the bass and piano further into focus, as they are mixed to the center of the image, and the center is always boosted slightly when you collapse stereo to mono.  I think this is the way these recordings were intended to be heard. 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Can you really use the word "mixed" when describing the sound of a majority of mono Blue Note recordings? If something is a simple fold down, there's no real mixing involved, is there? Don't most fold downs "center" the music?

[jazzbo]

I believe he was referring to the original mix having bass and piano centered, which is enhanced further by a mono fold down.

[Scott Dolan]

On October 5, 2016 at 3:37 AM, Steve Gray said:

Maybe something to do with RVG losing his hearing as he got older.

I don't think there is any question about that. Several of the RVG's I have on CD have the treble running WAY too hot. Point Of Departure comes immediately to mind. And IMO, that is a sure sign that hearing loss in the upper range was a factor. 

None of them are unlistenable, but some are so thin and brittle that they are certainly a difficult and fatiguing listen. 

[Teasing the Korean]

11 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

Can you really use the word "mixed" when describing the sound of a majority of mono Blue Note recordings?

Any recording using multiple microphones is mixed, whether you are mixing to mono, or to two track or more.  It takes a great deal of skill to mix on-the-fly to mono.  Strictly speaking, RVG was mixing to two track, but he was placing the instruments and levels in such a way that he was essentially mixing to mono, but also producing a stereo tape in the process, at least from my understanding of how he worked.  

 

11 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

If something is a simple fold down, there's no real mixing involved, is there? Don't most fold downs "center" the music?

Yes, but when you fold a stereo mix, the information in the center is boosted a few dBs relative to what is on the sides.  RVG typically placed the inherently louder instruments (drums, horns) to one side or other, while placing the bass and piano - the instruments most likely to get lost - in the center.  When you fold those mixes, the bass and piano come up in the mix a tad, but still enough to make a difference  The mixes sound great in mono, and I think creating great mono mixes was his priority, again, from my understanding.  So, folding mono essentially produces a slightly different mix if there is center information present (as there typically is). 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Teasing the Korean

[CJ Shearn]

11 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I always play stereo Blue Note albums - regardless of which mastering - in mono.  It typically brings the bass and piano further into focus, as they are mixed to the center of the image, and the center is always boosted slightly when you collapse stereo to mono.  I think this is the way these recordings were intended to be heard. 

Interesting, I have a mono setting on my receiver, might try that

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, CJ Shearn said:

Interesting, I have a mono setting on my receiver, might try that

Let us know if you hear any difference and if you think it is either better or worse.  The difference is less noticeable with the narrowed stereo mixes, because partial folding has already been accomplished. 

[ArtSalt]

As it happens, I am listening to the RVG CD of Lee Morgan's The Cooker and it sounds quite wonderful on my headphones. Not too narrow or artificially mono'd or bright at all.

There's a lot of factors that come into place: what the Japanese did with the first RVG's, the original source tape or lack there of and then the reverse Emperor New Clothes syndrome that came into the mainstream that made it sonically unacceptable to enjoy and appreciate the RVG CDs.

[felser]

10 hours ago, ArtSalt said:

As it happens, I am listening to the RVG CD of Lee Morgan's The Cooker and it sounds quite wonderful on my headphones. Not too narrow or artificially mono'd or bright at all.

There's a lot of factors that come into place: what the Japanese did with the first RVG's, the original source tape or lack there of and then the reverse Emperor New Clothes syndrome that came into the mainstream that made it sonically unacceptable to enjoy and appreciate the RVG CDs.

That was after it was sonically unacceptable to enjoy and appreciate the McMaster CD's.  And all this stuff (RVG and McMaster) always sounds great to my old ears on my cheap stereo equipment and trusty $30ish Sennheiser headphones.

[Dmitry]

Just ordered the Groovin at Smalls RVG 2-disc set. Let's see how the mono remaster stacks up against my 47 W. 63rd St record. The bonus tracks are really what I want to hear, though.

Headphone listening doesn't do it for me, unless I'm traveling or listen in bed.. I like to have the sound coming from in front of me, not centered between my ears. More and more people are going into the headphone direction now, though.

 

[ArtSalt]

My excuse is that I've just upgraded to the Grado's SR325e's and I'm breaking them in!

[Scott Dolan]

1 hour ago, ArtSalt said:

My excuse is that I've just upgraded to the Grado's SR325e's and I'm breaking them in!

NICE! Please review them in the audio forum once you've settled in with them. I've heard they are the shit.