Miles Davis Bootleg Series - crazy ideas for future volumes?

[crisp]

If this is the first time that Columbia or Sony has released this material then I don't have it, so this is a good release for me. I was expecting future bootlegs to be all-electric, which I'm not much into (especially when Miles is concerned).

[felser]

On 9/9/2017 at 8:24 AM, jazzbo said:

That's how I'm seeing it too and can't wait. Re: 5--I must say that some of this material (especially Miles Smiles) NEVER sounded better in this release. For that reason alone I enjoy it and have listened to it. . . possibly more than the other volumes!

good to know, thanks.  In that case, I'll look into it.

[jlhoots]

I just looked. I have the Copenhagen too (albeit probably a bootleg).

I'll play all of them soon.

[king ubu]

On 7.9.2017 at 11:44 PM, JSngry said:

As well, Paris also came out through RTR (on several labels, and then again on Malaco!), and Zurich on Dragon. These were all legit according to the terms of the original waivers or whatever were signed for the gig, so including these in a "Bootleg" series is itself kind of sketchy, if you want to get hardcore about it (and if I don't have to have an opinion about it, I won't). 

Zurich is on TCB (and was on Storyville's shady sub Jazz Unlimited and is now on Storyville itself ... but the TCB is sonically far superior imo).

Dragon has (had?) the Stockholm, and as with the Paris (which is on Frémeaux now) also offers the October set with Sonny Stitt (a whole other band with strong MD and Wynton to boot).

The Dutch Jazz Archive has a similar set with the Amsterdam concerts (where the April set is kinda mellow/tired). 

Beats me why Scheveningen (afternoon/early evening gig on same day as Amsterdam - the amazing version of "So What" was included on the Anniversary edition of KoB).

Surely will buy, but just as surely will keep the two previous four disc sets from Paris and Stockholm ...

[Rooster_Ties]

4 hours ago, king ubu said:

Dragon has (had?) the Stockholm, and as with the Paris (which is on Frémeaux now) also offers the October set with Sonny Stitt (a whole other band with strong MD and Wynton to boot).

So there was a parallel Paris(?) release with Sonny Stitt (like the two sets from Stockholm on Dragon) -- ??  I really LOVE the Stockholm set with Stitt (even more than the Stockholm set with Trane -- because Miles is on fire on the material with Stitt).  QUESTION:  If so, how does the Paris date with Stitt compare to the Stockholm date with Stitt?

I've never run across any (Trane or Stitt) of the Paris material on silver-disc grey-market releases (or not that I ever noticed anyway), which is funny, because there was good decade there (90's and early 2000's) where I used to always hit up certain brick-n-mortars for Miles boots (because they amazingly had them, with some frequency too).  But never saw any Paris '60 dates, that I can recall.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Remember, these were legit releases per the terms of releases and such signed at the time.

 

I said Malaco had Paris, but looks like it was Laserlight. Malaco does have other RET things, though: https://www.malaco.com/product-category/jazz/

[Clunky]

The Paris session isn't in the greatest sound on my CD edition , so I might be tempted if this Sony release offers a significant upgrade. I don't think I've got a legitimate issue of the Danish date. Sony sensibly prices these sets to sell and they are well produced. The only one that was poor in that regard was the Volume which had a fold out inset , which I hate......

 I too enjoyed Vol 5 , the sound was stunning and the whole package worked very well. 

[jazzbo]

From elsewhere this was posted:

This was posted by Peter Losin on a Miles forum/group I am a member of:

'Apparently they uncovered a new analog master of the Copenhagen show that will be used for this set, and the Stockholm set will include a Norman Granz stage introduction that has not been included in previous releases of the Stockholm show. But those are the only novelties as far as I know.'[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing!

 

[JSngry]

Losin has the Stockholm intro as being released on TAX CD 3716-2

http://www.plosin.com/milesahead/Sessions.aspx?s=600322&c=1

The Copenhagen intro otoh is showing as having never been issued, and is posted here as a quiet tribute to Garrett Morris:

1 Introduction (Norman Granz)1:07

"Thank you. And now, I'd like to present the next group, beginning with the pianist, Wynton Kelly... The bassist is Paul Chambers... The drummer is Jimmy Cobbs [sic]... On tenor saxophone, John Coltrane... On trumpet, Miles Davis..."

http://www.plosin.com/milesahead/Sessions.aspx?s=600324&c=1

 

[jazzbo]

The way I read this is that "an" introduction from Stockholm is being presented here for the first time, so perhaps it's a second introduction after a break or some other different introduction. As you note, Losin knows that there was an introduction before, so he may be talking of an additional one introduced for the first time.

I sure wish we had a definitive statement on the legality of these recordings in previous releases in the US. I know they are legal by European standards, or assume so. But only the Dragon combined Coltrane/Stitt set has been legally for sale in the US previously to my knowledge, and I had been told early in this century that this was because the estate had received further compensation. Perhaps there is legal reasons (reasons beyond pure greed) why the estate feels that past compensation does not mean that subsequent releases are free to be distributed without new compensation.

I get the feeling that the estate and Sony don't recognize the legitimacy in this market of the Paris and Copenhagen recordings--even though they are for sale here and there (and nearly everywhere). Recordings technically legal in Europe and not in the US can be bought easily in the US, so I'm not sure what any hoopla from the estate or Sony is about, but if this Bootleg Series inclusion is a way for the estate to make some money from them and then be open to further Bootleg Series releases. . . I'm supporting it.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I'm all for people getting paid. And although I fully recognize the legality of those issues in terms of originally signed releases, I certainly get the notion that legal and "right" aren't always the same thing. So yeah, I get the estate wanting to get more fully paid, and I see no reason why they shouldn't be playing this card with this material.

It's not something I feel a pressing need to pick up, but I have no doubt whatsoever that I'm not the target market, and really, Paris is historic in a deep sense. Not "historic", historic. It needs to be widely available in a way that anybody can get it without trying!

[king ubu]

On 12.9.2017 at 7:16 PM, JSngry said:

Remember, these were legit releases per the terms of releases and such signed at the time.

 

I said Malaco had Paris, but looks like it was Laserlight. Malaco does have other RET things, though: https://www.malaco.com/product-category/jazz/

Yup - the one on top is the nicest of these, comes with a full booklet with lots of comments (statements by musicians, press clippings) on the controversy ... the middle ones (single discs) usually have no liner notes/booklet at all, just a basic digipack with a flap to cover the disc, the ones at the bottom are cheap but very much okay - they come as two regular jewel cases inside a cardboard box and with generic short notes (one folded page with large-print notes inside).

Of the middle ones, I guess there would be two more volumes for the October set, and same for the bottom version. Those are also sometimes sold separately ...

So, @Rooster_Ties, if you have a chance, aim for the top version.

The lastest edition is this one here:

This will have some okay notes, but not as extensive as the top version from the early/mid-nineties.

And just in case, here's the Amsterdam release:

Probably easiest to buy at jazzmessengers - plenty of other goodies in the series:

http://www.jazzmessengers.com/en/98989898/complete-catalog-of-the-label-dutch-jazz-archives

[JohnS]

I have this one.  Three tracks.

[crisp]

18 hours ago, king ubu said:

Probably easiest to buy at jazzmessengers - plenty of other goodies in the series:

http://www.jazzmessengers.com/en/98989898/complete-catalog-of-the-label-dutch-jazz-archives

I didn't know about this label but it looks legit. Is it? And how's the sound?

[king ubu]

3 hours ago, crisp said:

I didn't know about this label but it looks legit. Is it? And how's the sound?

I guess it's legit in Europe, similar to TCB's Swiss Radio Days Jazz Series. Sound ist usually good. Found the Adderley somewhat muddy in that respect. These are all professionally done radio recordings I think (and there's Chet with Twardzik, too). The listing on jazzmessengers is nearly complete I think (items out of stock will disappear from searches).

[JSngry]

The question of "legit"...my understanding is that these tapes are owned by the various state(?) radio channels that recorded and aired the concerts. Releases were signed that gave these companies this right and it seems that the terms have not expired or otherwise changed. I really don't see how/why these things would be considered illegal in the U.S., because they're not a type of thing where "their PD laws are different from "ours", but perhaps they are anyway.

either way, I feel totally comfortable buying these things, and I feel perfectly comfortable with estates directing their energies into securing stateside releases on established commercial labels.

[Guy Berger]

 

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

The question of "legit"...my understanding is that these tapes are owned by the various state(?) radio channels that recorded and aired the concerts. Releases were signed that gave these companies this right and it seems that the terms have not expired or otherwise changed. I really don't see how/why these things would be considered illegal in the U.S., because they're not a type of thing where "their PD laws are different from "ours", but perhaps they are anyway.

either way, I feel totally comfortable buying these things, and I feel perfectly comfortable with estates directing their energies into securing stateside releases on established commercial labels.

I think JSngry's take is the right one.  (Though I'm guessing it's hard to determine which "off-label" releases are nevertheless legit in the sense that they're paying licensing fees to the radio channel?)

As fans, it's enlightened self-interest for us to subsidize the maintenance of archives like this, whether by state radio channels or by the artists' estates.

That said, if you are pretty sure that a release is illegitimate (i.e. they just downloaded it from THE SITE WHICH MUST NOT BE NAMED and are charging money for it) I'd say the opposite is true.  Download the music for free and then spend the money on a worthy cause like Nessa Music!

[JSngry]

Yeah, my attitude towards true bootlegged/pirate/etc stuff is that labels like Moon were once a necessary evil, and now they're not. Still, we "all" have a taste for forbidden musical fruits, so if you do get something from Solar or one of these other labels...that's an entry on the debit side of your conscience ledger. So do something to at least balance the sucker. It doesn't negate the fact of the debit, but it does allow for a net gain to the overall musical product cosmos. Better to give than to receive, if you want your sponge to keep working, squeeze it out, right?

and also - whatever you buy, or even take, that is not "official", if you have enjoyed it past the level of a one-time oh-ok-that-happened level of engagement, the moral imperative to purchase the material when it is legitimately released is pretty damn strong, if you ask me.

Now as far as those Euro-PD MusiPorn 25-on-3 Non-Stop Orgies, hey, y'all do what you want. But I ain't going there, that's where death to the genetic pool takes hold and I don't want that on my conscience ledger at all.

[king ubu]

7 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

I think JSngry's take is the right one.  (Though I'm guessing it's hard to determine which "off-label" releases are nevertheless legit in the sense that they're paying licensing fees to the radio channel?)

As fans, it's enlightened self-interest for us to subsidize the maintenance of archives like this, whether by state radio channels or by the artists' estates.

 

Absolutely, yes. If my post above sounded somewhat less secure that is because I've heard things about these radio deals (i.e. they had a contract that allwed one broadcast, or maybe multiple broadcasts ... they may own the tapes holding the music, but they don't actually own that music in a way that releasing it is covered in that agreement).

Not sure about any of this, and frankly I don't care, as I'm fully with you on that second part I'm quoting.

And yes, these would be state/national radio channels indeed.

There is, btw, also a cool series out on the label run by Polish radio ... they've done some 30 discs, mostly Polish stuff (Komeda, Namyslowski, Wróblewski, Trzaskowski ...), but also some great Johnny Griffin, some Don Ellis, Stan Getz etc. I think I've started a thread about this a while ago, the series is growing fast, I miss the most recent bunch of discs (it's farily easy to find your way through that site (with google translate, if in doubt):

http://sklep.polskieradio.pl/Category/110-polish-radio-jazz-archives.aspx

[GA Russell]

8 hours ago, JSngry said:

Now as far as those Euro-PD MusiPorn 25-on-3 Non-Stop Orgies, hey, y'all do what you want. But I ain't going there, that's where death to the genetic pool takes hold and I don't want that on my conscience ledger at all.

Jim, no disagreement from me; but those things also sound pretty bad, isn't that right?  So bad, you don't want them anyway, right?  No temptation, right?

I don't see anyone sneering at the PDs that sound good, like the John RT Davies Armstrong box.  You don't object to that one, do you?

[JSngry]

If somebody does their own work, hey. But so much of this Euro-PD MusiPorn stuff is just straight rips of other people's work. Or worse.

I don't care how good it sounds, if it's somebody else's work presented under the guise of NOT being somebody else's work, screw it. That's plain old okey-doke bullshit.

You want to know why you can get 5000 LPs on 2 CDs for $0.74? Do the math.

I have no temptation at all for this. But these kids today, th3ey don't realize what's being offered to them, and yeah, this shit is in Half-Prices and other Reputable Establishments, and you know how those things go...

 

[crisp]

Broadly what I meant by legit is that the company behind the CD owns the master tapes and has put a bit of effort into the results, ie, it will sound good. I'd like the material but not if it's going to sound like it was recorded on a portable cassette player from the back of the stalls.

[Niko]

On 9/15/2017 at 9:22 PM, king ubu said:

 

Absolutely, yes. If my post above sounded somewhat less secure that is because I've heard things about these radio deals (i.e. they had a contract that allwed one broadcast, or maybe multiple broadcasts ... they may own the tapes holding the music, but they don't actually own that music in a way that releasing it is covered in that agreement).

 

Indeed, it's hard to say how far these radio companies' rights went... would they have been allowed to issue Live LPs of the material in the US at the time? I somehow doubt it... then again, maybe nobody thought this far... The one contract I've seen (for the session behind Dolphy's "Last Date") is not terribly explicit, but the way I would read it, it seems clear that the Radio Company owns everything (and that Dolphy's contribution would be treated similarly to, say, a radio interview)

from here

Edited September 19, 2017 by Niko

[David Ayers]

Interesting documents. Not just a question of contract of course, but of prevailing national laws.  

Edited September 19, 2017 by David Ayers

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, David Ayers said:

Interesting documents. Not just a question of contract of course, but of prevailing national laws.  

And, on top of that, general ethical obligations/norms.