I dig Betty Carter!

[Tim McG]

Hm.

I'd like to think everyone is allowed to voice their own opinion...irrespective of how we believe individually.

Call me spoiled...

[Bright Moments]

for those of you in the anti-betty camp, do you feel the same way about nina simone (whom i adore)? it seems to me nina and betty had a lot in common in the way that they would approach any song and make it their own through their own peculiar (particular) interpretation.

B)

[Christiern]

Nina's style came to her naturally--it was how she sang, and she was extraordinary. When an artist tries to create a personal style, it never really works--if the originality is there, it will eventually come to the fore and take over. There was a time when Dizzy Gillespie's playing was as much like Roy Eldridge's as Betty Carters singing was like Sarah Vaughan's. Dizzy made a natural transition into his own, Betty tried too hard and it showed, IMO.

BTW, Tom Storer, I did have a run-in with Nina, but I did not admire her artistry any less. So much for that assumption, eh?

Edited March 1, 2004 by Christiern

[Jim Alfredson]

Tom, you're being very unfair to Chris. You forgot Mark Murphy.

Mark Murphy?!

<shudder>

If I never hear his "singing" again, it'll be too soon. Jive jive jive!!!

[Jim Alfredson]

In tribute to Sngry's thread:

[Big Wheel]

I'm not really a huge fan of Murphy's voice, and I think that he doesn't have the instinct for the music that vocalists in the highest echelon have, but he does pick good tunes and he comes up with clever ideas. Would I rather listen to Jon Hendricks or Eddie Jefferson do the vocalese thing? Usually. But IMO he's not the hack a lot of people make him out to be.

Maybe it's just that I'm a sucker for the Kerouac thing.

[Free For All]

With all due respect to those who like him, I'm not much of a Murphy fan either.

He "tests JIV positive" in my opinion, as do most of the new male vocalists.

[Jim Alfredson]

With all due respect to those who like him, I'm not much of a Murphy fan either.

He "tests JIV positive" in my opinion, as do most of the new male vocalists.

[Tom Storer]

for those of you in the anti-betty camp, do you feel the same way about nina simone (whom i adore)? it seems to me nina and betty had a lot in common in the way that they would approach any song and make it their own through their own peculiar (particular) interpretation.

I like Nina Simone well enough, but I think she had a narrower range of interpretative ability than Carter. For me, Carter's achievement, not to mention her lasting influence, was much greater, musically speaking.

Ballad-wise, I'd suggest "This Is Always," "Beware My Heart," and "Some Other Time" from "Inside Betty Carter" (mid-60's but the beginning of her more personal style); "Body and Soul/Heart and Soul," from "Finally" (1969); "Everytime We Say Goodbye" and "I'm Pulling Through" from "Round Midnight" (1975); "I Was Telling Him About You" and "Just Friends/Star Eyes" from "Now It's My Turn" (1976); "You're A Sweetheart" from "The Betty Carter Album" (1976); "I Think I Got It Now" and "Everything I Have Is Yours" from "The Audience with Betty Carter" (1980).

That's eleven recorded ballads that I think easily withstand charges of "butchering," in fact I think they're all lovely, moving performances. In concert, I saw her, on numerous occasions, keep packed houses holding their breath and hanging on every syllable for her ballads, and applauding enthusiastically when they were finished. One could say they were all duped, but winning over a house full of savvy jazz fans with butchered ballads would be quite a feat; winning over a house full of jazz newbies with butchered ballads would be even more of a feat.

One could also speculate that those who were so moved by her ballad performances, over a period of perhaps fifteen years that I saw her regularly in concert, were all trendy poseurs anxious to embrace a grotesque, strained effort at artificial originality, but one would be talking out of one's hat.

[MartyJazz]

[

Ballad-wise, I'd suggest "This Is Always," "Beware My Heart," and "Some Other Time" from "Inside Betty Carter" (mid-60's but the beginning of her more personal style); "Body and Soul/Heart and Soul," from "Finally" (1969); "Everytime We Say Goodbye" and "I'm Pulling Through" from "Round Midnight" (1975); "I Was Telling Him About You" and "Just Friends/Star Eyes" from "Now It's My Turn" (1976); "You're A Sweetheart" from "The Betty Carter Album" (1976); "I Think I Got It Now" and "Everything I Have Is Yours" from "The Audience with Betty Carter" (1980).

That's eleven recorded ballads that I think easily withstand charges of "butchering," in fact I think they're all lovely, moving performances. In concert, I saw her, on numerous occasions, keep packed houses holding their breath and hanging on every syllable for her ballads, and applauding enthusiastically when they were finished. One could say they were all duped, but winning over a house full of savvy jazz fans with butchered ballads would be quite a feat; winning over a house full of jazz newbies with butchered ballads would be even more of a feat.

One could also speculate that those who were so moved by her ballad performances, over a period of perhaps fifteen years that I saw her regularly in concert, were all trendy poseurs anxious to embrace a grotesque, strained effort at artificial originality, but one would be talking out of one's hat.

[MartyJazz]

Some of her even earlier stuff I really dig, e.g., "I Can't Help It? and "Make it Last" from the I CAN'T HELP IT Impulse CD (I have an original Progressive LP of this Feb '58 session).

A slight correction here. I'm too lazy to go downstairs and look for the LP. But now my memory tells me it's on the Peacock rather than the Progressive label.

[ghost of miles]

I dig Betty Carter AND Mark Murphy. Is that like being both a Yankees and Red Sox fan?

[Epithet]

cyd charisse

Hell yeah. I got something out of that post.

[Bright Moments]

dig this!!

[jazzbo]

I dig that!

[Hot Ptah]

I saw Betty live many times between 1978 and 1982, and she was incredible live in that time period. I do not think that her live artistry in that period was ever captured on recordings. Even "The Audience With Betty Carter" did not really get it. She was simply riveting then. I have had few moments when I was truly transported away during a live concert, and many of them were from Betty in that period. I recall one show at the Jazz Showcase in Chicago near the 4th of July, 1980, when she literally made my hair stand on end and my eyes melted into hers as she sang a love ballad. It was incredibly powerful. Just thinking about it makes me shiver.

Her bands during this period were also always top notch. John Hicks and Mulgrew Miller were her pianists, Cameron Brown was the bassist for a time, and Kenny Washington was on drums. She sang over them like a jazz horn giant with an all-time great rhythm section.

[Christiern]

"Clementine" talking about "nonsense"? Gimme a break!

[brownie]

Good to see Christiern back home

[Kalo]

With all due respect to those who like him, I'm not much of a Murphy fan either.

He "tests JIV positive" in my opinion, as do most of the new male vocalists.

[jazzbo]

I become more and more a BetCar fan as time goes by.

In my opinion, one of the great singers.

[Hot Ptah]

I have always liked her rendition of Cole Porter's "Most Gentlemen Don't Like Love" on the "Now It's My Turn" album. She delivers it with just the right touch, for me.

[Kalo]

I dig Betty Carter, too. Not everything, but she sure had her moments.

I recall a thought that occured to me when I saw her live in the '80s. It struck me that her approach to recomposing a tune had a lot in common with Monk's -- idiosyncratic, suspenseful, and engaging -- but representing the distaff complement to his. Now this may not be the most politically correct observation, but Monk's recompositions and phrasings were hard, angular, and masculine while Carter's, just as radical, were nevertheless soft, curvy, and feminine.

[Hot Ptah]

I dig Betty Carter, too. Not everything, but she sure had her moments.

I recall a thought that occured to me when I saw her live in the '80s. It struck me that her approach to recomposing a tune had a lot in common with Monk's -- idiosyncratic, suspenseful, and engaging -- but representing the distaff complement to his. Now this may not be the most politically correct observation, but Monk's recompositions and phrasings were hard, angular, and masculine while Carter's, just as radical, were nevertheless soft, curvy, and feminine.

There is really something to that, in my opinion. Those who "get" Betty tend to really delve into (and enjoy) her recomposing and deconstructing the songs, which she does in a unique way. It was more obvious that this is what she was doing when you saw her live, I think. Her stage presence was powerful--she was the opposite of a shrinking violet, and it seemed that she was boldly taking risks with the material, which risks were interesting and enjoyable to follow. At least that is how I viewed it and heard it.

To simply dismiss her out of hand with little analysis is, in my humble opinion, like saying "that John Coltrane just ran all over his horn--I can't follow it--he's no good." Betty was a heavy artist, and if you don't get it at first, I don't think it is fair to dump on Betty.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Hot Ptah

[marcello]

I love Betty Carter but some people have a hard time getting past her style.

I only saw her once, at Fat Tuesday in NYC. Sharing a table near me were Linda Ronstadt and Pete Hamil. My buddy, Barry Kiener had a audition with her just before this, but he was passed over in favor of Kalid Moss who couldn't hold a candle to him. That kind of soured me on her for a while.

[Guy Berger]

Sharing a table near me were Linda Ronstadt and Pete Hamil.

The Van Der Graaf guy?

Guy