Why are the reputations of US composers so pianissimo?

[Teasing the Korean]

It is my understanding that U.S. orchestras routinely programmed works of U.S.-born composers throughout the 19th century and into the 20th.  Toscanini probably did more than any single figure to solidify the Eurocentric classical repertoire that has been dominant throughout the 20th century and into the 21st.

 

Not sure if the League of American Orchestras still publishes this information, but back when they were the ASOL, they annually published spreadsheets detailing which works were programmed by professional US orchestras in a  given year, along with frequency of performances, e.g., zillions of Beethoven 5th performances and not many by Charles ives. 

Edited July 17, 2016 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

10 hours ago, A Lark Ascending said:

I thtught it was a musicaltyle that (initially at least) tried . to use some non-Western approaches; the relentless, machine-like repetition creating a sense of modernity, the relative harmonic simplicity and exotic timbres giving a point of contact for the ordinary listener. Can't say I've ever felt any more egotistical listening to Reich or Adams rather than Carter or Ives.

Well, You were talking about Ikea and Downton Abbey and all that, not about the music Itself.Certain musics often and easily are put to popular uses for which their creators had  litlle or no Intent.

 

 

 

[A Lark Ascending]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Well, You were talking about Ikea and Downton Abbey and all that, not about the music Itself.Certain musics often and easily are put to popular uses for which their creators had  litlle or no Intent.

Of course. 

Though some of the Minimalists have written for cinema directly; and some of the New Deal era composers wrote pieces for theatre alongside a general idea that at least some of their music ought to have a wider social usefulness.

I suspect that before we become consciously interested in music as music we pick up a lot of our musical reference points from things like film (there's a strong argument that the Mahler boom of the 60s came on the back of the emigre Hollywood scores of the 40s and 50s). The presence of Minimalism in so many contemporary film scores, jingles etc probably makes that music more approachable to a wider audience today, making it a reliable ticket seller. You can often hear Copland in Westerns and the like in the 40s and 50s - you still hear it today (especially in science fiction themes). But it hasn't created a revived interest in the mid-20thC US composers. Maybe if they were programmed more lights would go on.

Of course, only some of the music made in the mid-20thC relates to that broad-screen, Western approach. Much of what I've heard is pretty dry (not a criticism), owing a lot to Stravinsky and the pre-war French composers.       

[JSngry]

All I know is that when I see commercials featuring bright eyed people with perfect posture executing their life dreams in a perfectly effortless fashion through some commercial mechanism and not once having to stop to so much as scratch a  scrotum or adjust a purse strap or anything other than keep going keep going nothing's ever going to stop you you're not just a winner, you're THE winner, it is inevitably accompanied by either some grossly simplified Minimalistic twaddle or else isolated bits and pieces of same, you know, the glorified triadic nonsense that is played super cleanly and crisply, usually by a clarinet for some reason, like this is SO special, and it's all for you, and you know, fuck that, I can obsess over brief triadic spurts for you all day long, that does not make me special, nor you, although if the narcissism implied by looking toward life as deserved entitlement of frictionfree fulfillment makes you a dangerously deluded self-hypnotized god-on-the-go then hey, so be it. Swallow those triads whole, then, bon-api-fucking-tit.

Apple is the worst of the lot, Bank of America runner up, so much TV, it's just everywhere. Minimalism itself I can take or leave, a little goes a long way for me, although the concept/philoshophy/etc was/is useful for palate (intellectual and executional) expanding. But the uses to which it is being put in the marketplace are basically just vile. The line between meditative trance and hypnotic brainwashing is a very fine one, and might have as much to do with input as anything else. Perhaps input is the only distinction, perhaps a self-induced meditative state exits as the mechanism of self-brainwashing. . So you tell me - do you trust Apple or Bank of America or Downton Abbey or ANY of this stuff to put you into ANY kind of relaxed trance? I sure as hell don't.

[David Ayers]

Nothing but warhorses in Wales next season.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/r5rbj5/series/rgp5d4

 

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Even the Korngold symphony is in there. 

 

Why not investigate what is on offer and take advantage of it? Instead of just complaining?

AND WHO EVEN KNEW THAT HINDEMITH WROTE A CLARINET CONCERTO? LET ALONE GOT CHANCE TO HEAR IT?

 And tickets cost £12 - about $15.

[JSngry]

In my experience, it works better to smell the coffee and then wake up, but even so, is there another link to what you've pointing to? That one is not working for me and its 6:30 PM, coffee at this hour not advisable for me.

[David Ayers]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

In my experience, it works better to smell the coffee and then wake up, but even so, is there another link to what you've pointing to? That one is not working for me and its 6:30 PM, coffee at this hour not advisable for me.

Maybe this http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/r5rbj5/by/decade/2010?lang=en

 

I am looking at the 2016-17 season of the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, which is a 'regional' radio orchestra. The orchestra does its most public-subsidy driven work at Hoddinott Hall in Cardiff and the link was supposed to be to that series, which includes concerts of lesser-known Welsh and British music. 

 

I'm making the point that all sorts of music is out there. 

On the other hand, I also have a problem with taking for granted so many great works as 'warhorses' just because we are fortunate to be able to hear so many of them so frequently. 

[JSngry]

More music than ever, fewer laces to put it than ever, no wonder why everybody makes records and none but a few have gigs....perhaps the other way around would be fun?

[David Ayers]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

More music than ever, fewer laces to put it than ever, no wonder why everybody makes records and none but a few have gigs....perhaps the other way around would be fun?

 

I basically think that a lot of composers get or had their chance, a lot of stuff comes and goes, and the stuff that really stays is pretty darn good, if not sublime. Those Welsh concerts are pretty extreme! I know that people wish their local orchestras would do this or that, but they do what they can, and if people want more diversity - or just the best - they will have to travel. 

The point is well taken that the US does not have the radio orchestras which the UK and other countries have, which can do the repertoire exploration. That said, as I hesitate and more than hesitate over booking for ARTHUR BLISS's BEATITUDES next season, I ask myself and am reminded to ask all you, what do we really want? Which is why I mentioned Terfel and Pappano's Boris Godunov. Wish for that - you won't be sorry. 

[A Lark Ascending]

I think we're talking about different things. Yes, simplified Minimalism (and other musics - 'classical music' is just a small part; compare the use of rock/pop/jazz/blues, especially 'classic' rock/pop/jazz/blues) is used manipulatively to sell product but then it was ever thus. But with meta-data it's all just better targeted. 

I'm interested in why certain things in 'classical music' catch on whilst others languish (the original article is saddened that a particular area of music that proved not to fit the 'artistic' fashions immediately after its time has not enjoyed a revival of some degree). Now if you come from a background of 'art and culture' you are likely to get taught the correct things to be seen appreciating. But most people bump into things from various sources - what they hear randomly on the radio, bits heard in school, music caught in film or on ads, things that catch an interest from being written about in a newspaper, magazine (or website!). 

Minimalism (largely in watered down form) has proved very adaptable to being used in promotion. I suspect this just gives a point of introduction that is one of the ways that carry people into listening to it as music in itself. The mid-20thC American music doesn't have the same recognition factor.

The parallel between the largely tonal and melodic [in the common use of the word as a musical line that sticks in your head] mid-20thC US music and the early-to-mid 20thC 'second division' English classical music is interesting. The elite who pronounce on what is significant have generally been sniffy about both. Yet in Britain the latter music has gained a foothold in spite of the disapproval from on high. The way I read the initial article is - 'Hey there's some interesting and enjoyable music here which did not get a great deal of attention after its initial composition, it would be nice to programme it now and then.'  

More music than ever, fewer laces to put it than ever, no wonder why everybody makes records and none but a few have gigs....perhaps the other way around would be fun?

 

That's just the way we live now. Technology has allowed us to do in our homes what we once had to go out for. You can't undo that. 

 

But I don't see it as unsolvable. When I was growing up cinemas were dying on their feet. But they've enjoyed a renaissance in the last 30 years - people rediscovered the pleasure of going out, meeting friends, making a bit of an event of it (doesn't prevent anyone staying in the next night and watching a boxed set). We're constantly told in Britain that there has been a huge expansion of concert/festival going in recent years (and that is where the money is made).

 

People will go to live music - in this case live classical music - if they know they are going to have fun. If you present the experience as 'communing with the arts' then you will lose much of your audience (and you might want to doubt the reasons for attendance of some who are there). I was talking to my sister a week or so back - an educated, well read person for whom music is largely peripheral. She could not understand my frequent concert attendance. At one point she said "The trouble is I don't know what to do at a concert." In that sentence you have the problem of building the audience for live classical music beyond those already committed (and those who like to be seen being 'cultured').

 

People who go to pop/rock festivals know they are going to have fun because they know they will be 'doing' - dancing, socialising, flirting, crowd-surfing etc. Now I wouldn't want crowd-surfing through 'Das Lied von der Erde', I like the quiet, respectful listening of the classical concert. But if classical musicians want 'more gigs' they are going to have to address that 'what to do' question. Most people go out to 'do', not just to receive.       

Edited July 18, 2016 by A Lark Ascending

[David Ayers]

Muddle instead of music.

[David Ayers]

If anyone is interested in what actually goes on in UK concert life, try these links:

https://issuu.com/bbcsso/docs/bbcsso_glasgow_201617_final_brochur

https://issuu.com/southbank_centre/docs/classical_guide_1617

http://www.barbican.org.uk/classical1617/media/season-brochure.pdf

 

I put Glasgow first so that people can judge for themselves what orchestras outside London actually do. The Glasgow orchestra is one of three doing the Korngold Symphony this year in the UK.  Plus Arnold, Finzi, a Tippett cycle... Even two pieces by Anthony Braxton.  

 

 

 

[David Ayers]

On 14 July 2016 at 9:47 PM, JSngry said:

 

I was racking my brains to remember attending a Carter premiere. It was this. Carter was there. I can't remember what the rest of the concert was, but if I find the program I will let you know.  I may have heard other of his orchestral works in concert, but I am struggling to remember and I think I would if I had.

 

Three Occasions for Orchestra

1986-1989

I. A Celebration... II. Remembrance III. Anniversary

3(II,III=picc).2.corA.2.bcl.2.dbn-4.3.3.1-timp.perc(2):vib/marimba/xyl/3susp.cym/BD/glsp -pft(=cel)-strings(16.14.12.10.8)
9790051094806 (Full score)

World Premiere: 05 Oct 1989

London, Royal Festival Hall, United Kingdom BBC Symphony Orchestra
Conductor: Oliver Knussen CBE 

Edited July 27, 2016 by David Ayers

[JSngry]

I mean, it's hard music, I can only imagine what goes into rehearsing it and getting it up to baseline performance quality, much less into some kind of real zone. That's a lot of work, and work is time and time is money. But I did hear a PBS broadcast of the San Francisco Symphony doing a carter orchestral thing, and sure, there was "struggle", but it was the good kind. I was in the car when it came on, and I started just driving around instead of going home so I could hear it all.

Point just being, I don't know that they'll come if you build it, but if you build it and put it on the radio, I'll listen to it. So build it here and see if I'm out here alone in my car, or in a seat with some other people.

[MomsMobley]

Adolphus Hailstork performed by the Grand Rapids Symphony and all credit Grand Rapids but you'd think "we" could hear this elsewhere too?

Hailstork in Czechoslavakia, the redoubtable Paul Freeman conducting

 

[David Ayers]

 

 

Each to her/his own. 

[Chuck Nessa]

On July 27, 2016 at 11:45 AM, JSngry said:

I mean, it's hard music, I can only imagine what goes into rehearsing it and getting it up to baseline performance quality, much less into some kind of real zone. That's a lot of work, and work is time and time is money. But I did hear a PBS broadcast of the San Francisco Symphony doing a carter orchestral thing, and sure, there was "struggle", but it was the good kind. I was in the car when it came on, and I started just driving around instead of going home so I could hear it all.

Point just being, I don't know that they'll come if you build it, but if you build it and put it on the radio, I'll listen to it. So build it here and see if I'm out here alone in my car, or in a seat with some other people.

I have a real weakness for performances of "struggle" and ultimate triumph. Possibly my favorite example is the BBC recording of Bruckner 8, Horenstein/LSO from 1970.

[David Ayers]

 

 

 

yet another warhorse foisted on us by a globalised cabal of shady elites and experts - nothing to sing along with here after your fourteenth pint of ale - unlike a certain ninth we could all name

 

let's take back control of whatever it is we think we have lost control of

 

our minds?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by David Ayers

[paul secor]

19 hours ago, David Ayers said:

 

 

Each to her/his own. 

I enjoyed listening to this. Guess you didn't. I'm sure I'd enjoy listening  to it more live in a concert hall, rather than at home where there are distractions.

[David Ayers]

1 hour ago, paul secor said:

I enjoyed listening to this. Guess you didn't. I'm sure I'd enjoy listening  to it more live in a concert hall, rather than at home where there are distractions.

 

Of course I love this piece. 

I think it is pretty obvious what are the positions I am making fun of. One is the claim that Carter doesn't get done. When he was done extensively at Tanglewood I'm guessing nobody here went.  No problem on the supply side.

 

 

[paul secor]

4 hours ago, David Ayers said:

 

 

 

yet another warhorse foisted on us by a globalised cabal of shady elites and experts - nothing to sing along with here after your fourteenth pint of ale - unlike a certain ninth we could all name

 

let's take back control of whatever it is we think we have lost control of

 

our minds?

 

 

 

 

I like this one too.  Sometimes I like music I can sing along with - sometimes not - probably more often not.

Thanks for posting both Carter pieces, even if the results might not have exactly followed your intent.

Reading what you posted while I was posting this, I guess I misread your intent.

Edited July 29, 2016 by paul secor

[David Ayers]

 

And I believe I mentioned I was at the world premiere of Three Occasions back in 1988. That involved getting out of my armchair.

[paul secor]

I guess we're on the same page. I just didn't pick up on your sarcasm. Thanks again for the links.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, David Ayers said:

 

. One is the claim that Carter doesn't get done. When he was done extensively at Tanglewood I'm guessing nobody here went.  No problem on the supply side.

 

 

Dude, when did this happen and how the hell was I supposed to get there? It's not a day trip, you know.

[paul secor]

It actually would have been a day trip for me, but I had no knowledge of Elliott Carter's music in 2008. I get David's point, though - I should get out to hear more live music.