Why are the reputations of US composers so pianissimo?

[A Lark Ascending]

"With American orchestras reluctant to celebrate the music of its great symphonists, fellow composer and Aspen festival’s CEO Alan Fletcher is determined to put them back in the spotlight."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2016/jun/28/american-composers-neglected-aspen-music-festival-classical

[Stefan Wood]

Part of the problem has been American classical music had little to no support from the media.   Grammophone and other British publications have always championed (and often overstating the importance of) British classical music.

[StarThrower]

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Edited July 14, 2016 by StarThrower

[HutchFan]

Generally speaking, I think American orchestras are more conservative -- particularly in terms of repertoire -- than their European counterparts.  

About a decade ago, I did a bit of research on this when I was building my Charles Ives site. It was amazing how rarely Ives' works were performed by US-based orchestras. That said -- other than perhaps Copland -- Ives' works were among the most frequently performed compositions by American composers. 

We need another Stokowski, another Bernstein... someone who can build audiences for these works.  But those sorts of "celebrity conductors" don't really exist anymore -- at least in the United States.  The phrase "well-known artist" is an oxymoron in American cultural life.

[JSngry]

Why are we thinking in terms of "symphonists"?

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Why are we thinking in terms of "symphonists"?

Traditionally, the repertoire of orchestras is symphonies.  There are exceptions, of course.  Suites from ballets and operas come to mind. "Bleeding chunks" from Wagner. The occasional non-symphonic work composed specifically for a symphony orchestra.

OTOH, opera music is usually performed by opera companies -- as opposed to symphony orchestras.  Staging an opera is MUCH more expensive and difficult than performing a symphony -- just because of the greater number of variables. Think about staging, set design, acting, etc., etc.  Add all of that on top of the rehearsal that you'd put into performing a symphony, and you've got a LOT more work to stage an opera. (The same is true with ballet -- although traditionally ballet has been more scalable than opera -- which is usually "grand.") 

I'm not sure whether that answers the question that you were posing. . . Hopefully so.  

[StarThrower]

I don't think the problem is conservative orchestras. There's been very little effort over the past 40 years to cultivate an audience for the music. And orchestras need more subsidies to afford to rehearse unfamiliar material that may not draw very large audiences. Of course they can't take chances playing Piston, Ives, and Schuman all season. Americans don't know any of this music. It's the audiences that are conservative and ignorant.

My own city's symphony orchestra folded a few years ago because they no longer received the corporate sponsorship from a large locally based company that went global like every other company, and they don't give a damn about local orchestras and musical culture. And an orchestra cannot survive off of ticket sales. They couldn't even sell enough tickets for a concert featuring a celebrity soloist, so the event was canceled. It's the same for jazz and progressive rock music. That's why jazz festivals are always booking pop acts. If it's all jazz, nobody shows up.

[JSngry]

5 hours ago, HutchFan said:

Traditionally, the repertobearsof orchestras is symphonies.   There are exceptions, of course.  Suites from ballets and operas come to mind. "Bleeding chunks" from Wagner. The occasional non-symphonic work composed specifically for a symphony orchestra.

OTOH, opera music is usually performed by opera companies -- as opposed to symphony orchestras.  Staging an opera is MUCH more expensive and difficult than performing a symphony -- just because of the greater number of variables. Think about staging, set design, acting, etc., etc.  Add all of that on top of the rehearsal that you'd put into performing a symphony, and you've got a LOT more work to stage an opera. (The same is true with ballet -- although traditionally ballet has been more scalable than opera -- which is usually "grand.") 

I'm not sure whether that answers the question that you were posing. . . Hopefully so.  

Maybe, maybe not...I was going by the tread title, which referred to "US composers", of which "symphonists" are evolving (have already evolved?) into a very limited subset.

If the article was referring specifically to actual symphonies alone, then ok, point taken. But otherwise, my question remains. American composers do have a body of orchestral work, but perhaps the most exciting American work has been done on a smaller scale. I mean, I'll take Elliot Carter anywhere anyway, butgive me the string quartets vs the "symphonic" works, hey...

Has John Cage ever written anything "symphonic"?

[JSngry]

Anybody have any statistics about how much new American symphonic work has been the result of commisions? Over, say, the last 50 years? Versus chamber or solo works?

Here in Dallas, we seem to be putting down a welcome mat for Christopher Rouse, who to me is much like his older step-brother Charlie, not my first choice given other option. Nor my last, just to be clear.

Along those lines, maybe, I've yet to hear Ives or Piston performed live, symphonic or otherwise, and that's a drag. But how is that gonna work unless orchestras turn into club bands and work 5-6 night a a week, 4-5 hours every night? Then, you have to bring a big repertoire of "all styles". That's how you get that done. But where is the money for that, both in bulk and on an individual contract basis?  You're not gonna get that math.

But yeah, imagine if Stravinsky had a road band that played hotels and shit. Don't laugh, just imagine it. And then wonder how anything gets played in a season of not all that many gigs a year that don't involve pops and such. Limited time, limited opportuniy, limited audience, big challenges about eveything, including what to select to play, so much reprrtoire, so little room at the inn, and who's gonna pay for it anyway?

As much as I advocate for live music (because it's live music, that's why!), otoh thank god for records of this music and for people with just enough money to make them. Talk about underground... John Cage made his debut on Dial for chrissakes. ..still available on CRI (?), and omg, yes!

As far as somebody championing these composers, is there an Elliot Carter festival anywhere in the world? Or a Walter Piston festival? Or a Charles Ives festival? Etc? Rightly or wrongly (wrongly) "recognition" of this type of music will not come from one talent pool pimping many composers, it will come from multiple talent pools pimping individual composers. Horse, cart, etc.

Imo, of course.

[MomsMobley]

Re: Ives, it's a motherfucking corporate abomination how his catalog has been treated. Check out what Columbia did in the 1960s and 70s and what's ever come out on CD even once, let alone well compiled once and then re- re- re- re- packaged for subsequent gens & collectors of packaging / "improved" mastering.

That's just the most obvious-- but also the most important-- example, so one could in a relatively small package have access to Ives':

symphonies, tone poems, string quartets, other chamber pieces, piano music, choral music, some (if not all) songs.

One can get most (tho' not all) of that elsewhere and unbeknownst to many, one of the great contempo Ives programs was recorded for and released by German EMI under Ingo Metzmacher's "wand"

Especially now with RCA / Columbia ("Sony") one, I'd argue their should also be a Samuel Barber box, even if that ends up confusing matters as "adagio" and "Knoxville Summer of 1915" lovers try to reconcile the piano sonata and James Joyce and other 'outre' references etc

And that's just the monuments!

We can talk about the Nonesuch and Albany and New Albion (Lou Harrison!) and Delos and Naxos labels (at their respective peaks) elsewhere.

But what was once "obvious" and should be as both destination and starting point has been rendered needlessly "obscure" and diffuse...

** ** **

ya'll know Beroff's Prokofiev, Bartok and Messiaen (for starters) I'm sure...

 

[A Lark Ascending]

The article, to my mind, exaggerates the programming of comparable British composers (those who have gained recognition but are not considered in the front rank of 'innovators'). Outside of London, Elgar turns up regularly, one Holst piece frequently, Vaughan Williams less often. Otherwise, regional programmes are dominated by bums-on-seats warhorses from the traditional classical European repertoire, mainly Classical/Romantic era.  

Where I do notice a difference is in recordings. There are now multiple recordings of the likes of Bridge, Moeran, Bax, Finzi, Alwyn etc (not all 'symphonists', I know) with regular new issues exploring deep into the nooks and crannies of their output (reconstructions of sketches included). Maybe I'm just missing things but I don't see the same for similar American composers of a similar era - Piston, Schuman, Harris etc. The recordings I have are on labels knocking around in the 80s/90s like Delos and Albany and more recently Naxos (often reissues from other labels). A pity as I've always enjoyed the music of such composers.   

Ives probably doesn't fit the sort of composers the writer is referring to - he's pretty generally accepted as one of the big guys these days.  

[David Ayers]

It is certainly interesting that someone has decided to bring forward Piston and Schuman.  That said,  the article makes a skewed case by only reporting on the absence of performances of certain composers.  It seems to me that there are many American composers who receive important premieres and repeat performances.  Last year the LAPO under Dudamel performed Williams, Norman and Copland in London. Next year the NYPO under Gilbert brings John Adams. Adams and Glass are frequently performed in London and I feel pretty sure that is the case in the US. Glass is 80 next year and has a big retrospective in London - I feel sure he will have even more in the USA. John Adams will also be conducting two of his operas with BBCSO and LSO. 

 

 I could go on, but my sense is that this is not a question about the conservatism of orchestras, exactly, but about a certain element of the repertoire. So there is much more focus on recent greats such as the 'minimalists' I have mentioned, and there also seems to me to be a reasonable amount of space given to contemporary composers such as Andrew Norman, Jennifer Higdon, Augusta Read Thomas, etc. 

 

 Also, and to run in the opposite direction for a moment, it does seem to me that there is excessive performance of early 20th century British composers in the UK.  It seems likely that this has become a condition attached to public arts subsidy.  These works are fine, but rarely the best, and I may not be the only concert goer who can't get all that excited about some of those works anymore.  I think that if people in the United States given Piston instead of Prokofiev too often they may begin to tire of it. 

 

MTT is one conductor who keeps at it. Check out his American Mavericks concert next June - Ives, Harrison, Antheil...

Edited July 15, 2016 by David Ayers

[Rooster_Ties]

Names from the first paragraph of the article:  "Piston, George Antheil, Erich Korngold, Peter Mennin, Roger Sessions, Charles Ives, Roy Harris and William Schuman."

Before I downsized my collection several years ago (when I moved to DC), I must have had 6 discs of Piston, 4 of Antheil, 7-8 of Korngold, at least 3 of Mennin -- and I *still* have all 12-14 of my Roger Sessions CD's (didn't let go of a single one, iirc) -- and about 25+ discs of IVES.  Not much Roy Harris (if any, that I can remember), but at least 3-4 Schuman.

And yet I think I've only heard 1 Piston piece live in concert ever, and nothing besides Korngold's great violin concerto (which one can hear 2-3 times a decade, easily, especially if one travels).  And BTW, where is Korngold's equally fantastic SYMPHONY?? - in terms of live performances? -- which I rank among my personal favorites of any century or style (along with Baber's rare second symphony).  Of course, there's Ives (which does get programmed every now and then -- just heard his second symphony live for the first time earlier this year, by the NSO here in DC).  And all the rest, nada.

So other than that, I expect to go to my grave never having heard ANY of Sessions brilliant symphonies performed live (especially 6, 7, & 9) -- and scarcely anything else by any of the other names mentioned.

And I say that as someone who regularly attended the Kansas City Symphony for 15 years, and cherry-picked all the best that the St. Louis Symphony would program during those same years (post-Slatkin, BTW) -- and now the NSO.

Not American, I realize, but the NSO is playing some more outside-the-squares stuff, for instance, I got to hear Hindemith's huge choral/symphonic work "When Lilacs last in the dooryard bloom’d (Requiem for those we love)" last year -- which I'd never expected to ever get to hear live.

[JSngry]

Hey Tom, who's good for you on Sessions? My random Pandora samplings have yet to really click, but I do here the potential.

[Larry Kart]

A good one:

https://www.amazon.com/Sessions-Sonatas-Martino-Fantasies-Impromptus/dp/B00000DFWN/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1468626657&sr=1-1&keywords=roger+sessions+helps

Also worthwhile: https://www.amazon.com/Roger-Sessions-Symphonies-Composers-Orchestra/dp/B00FZ1MEUS/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1468626806&sr=1-5&keywords=roger+sessions+symphonies

Don't know this one, but the performers have good track records:

https://www.amazon.com/Roger-Sessions-Music-Violin-Piano/dp/B011QLB3N4/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1468626847&sr=1-9&keywords=roger+sessions

A very worthwhile collection, with one Sessions work in (I believe) its only recording. The Di Domenica is fascinating IMO:

https://www.amazon.com/Carter-Variations-Orchestra-Wuorinen-Bamboula/dp/B0002JZ2Z2/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1468626907&sr=1-12&keywords=roger+sessions

[A Lark Ascending]

15 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

and nothing besides Korngold's great violin concerto (which one can hear 2-3 times a decade, easily, especially if one travels).  And BTW, where is Korngold's equally fantastic SYMPHONY?? - in terms of live performances? -- which I rank among my personal favorites of any century or style 

Korngold seems to be catching on in Britain of late - lots of new recordings and the Violin Concerto is appearing frequently, even out in the provinces beyond London (performance in Nottingham in October).

Agree about the Symphony - though the Korngold piece I'm surprised hasn't taken wing is the Symphonic Serenade. All it will take is a film or TV producer to use part of it for a theme tune and it will be there. 

Malcolm Arnold has at least three symphony cycles on record, Alwyn at least two. Seems a pity there are not modern cycles of Piston, Sessions etc. Regardless of how 'important' they are (or are not) it would be nice to be able to hear them and make our own mind up as to whether we like them or not. I'm sure a few Beethoven or Brahms cycles could be put on hold to let one or two through.   

Edited July 16, 2016 by A Lark Ascending

[David Ayers]

Well, Bryn Terfel in Boris Godunov for me tonight. If I get the chance I'll ask Pappano why he doesn't do more Piston instead of old warhorses like Mussorgsky. 

[Rooster_Ties]

20 hours ago, JSngry said:

Hey Tom, who's good for you on Sessions? My random Pandora samplings have yet to really click, but I do here the potential.

Jim. you have to get the American Composers Orchestra disc of Symphonies 6, 7, & 9 - which is my favorite (and my wife is even enjoying it this morning too!).

I'm really partial to his symphonic works a lot more than his chamber.

For years 8 either went unrecorded (or was a bitch to find, in any case) - but it's on a New World Records disc from barely 10 years ago, with works by Aaron Copland (the obscure Inscape from 1967, Coplands last major symphonic work, and it's surprisingly thorny too), and also 1990's works George Perle and Bernard Rands.

4 & 5 plus Sessions' Rhapsody for Orchestra were also on New World in the mid 80's.

1, 2, & 3 were on CRI, most (all?) much older recordings (I can't seem to find recording dates in the liners, but evidence that 2 is in mono).

His piano concerto is paired with the 1989 (piano) concerto of Francis Thorn on New World (mid 90's recording).  And his violin concerto is paired with Stephan Wolpe's (lone?) symphony on CRI.

And finally, his Black Maskers Suite is with Howard Hanson conducting (in 1956) on Murcury, with works by Colin McPhee and Virgil Thomson.

 

Start with the disk of Symphonies 6, 7, & 9, for sure - maybe work backwards chronologically.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Lots to look for, thank you and Larry both, much appreciated.

Listening to this right now, and jeesus, it's screaming out to be played and heard live, for the music to be coming directly from inside the performance area, not from disembodied waveforms emanating from stereo hi-fi record player speakers. There is MOTION in this music as well as emotion, let me see this music as well as hear it, please!

[MomsMobley]

All Sessions is at least good Sessions; I'd be shocked if you can't find the Dennis Russell Davies cond. Sym 4, 5, 6 disc Larry posted since that was Argo (part of London / Polygram U.S.)...

Note the label here and ask rhetorically why more people don't know it-- don't even know it exists!

piano sonata 2 live

Takes balls, baby! to set the same text Hindemith did & not an easy one either-- Whitman's great (if racially evasive) Lincoln threnody but Sessions had 'em--

... but what about Szechuan?

Edited July 16, 2016 by MomsMobley

[A Lark Ascending]

What I find odd is that both Copland/New Deal classical Americana (via John Williams and others) and American Minimalism (ostinato motor rhythms with rich chords alongside and a tune on top) seem to be two of the key ingredients to much film/TV drama music today (even Downton Abbey uses it rather than the English cowpat you might expect). The latter is healthily alive both in the concert hall and in recordings, the former lost to the margins. 

Maybe Minimalism goes better with fashionable contemporary painting, IKEA decor and nouveaux cuisine. 

[JSngry]

It's a non-intrusive lifestyle affirmer, if you are looking for something that eggsyou to keep going, don't stop, you're a winner, what could possibly go wrong, well, it can do that for you.

[A Lark Ascending]

Anyone here speak Texan? 

[JSngry]

That's what Minimalism is often used for. The repetition and lack of silence lets people block everything else out save their own drive to have everything their way.

Of course, that's only when it's consonant-ish, but the things that penetrate past the peripheral always are, don't you think?

[A Lark Ascending]

I thought it was a musical style that (initially at least) tried to use some non-Western approaches; the relentless, machine-like repetition creating a sense of modernity, the relative harmonic simplicity and exotic timbres giving a point of contact for the ordinary listener. Can't say I've ever felt any more egotistical listening to Reich or Adams rather than Carter or Ives.