no thread on The Passion yet???

[Chrome]

Yes, a fact is true, and can be proven to be so.

Not really ... we could all be living in the Matrix!

And try proving we're not.

[jazzbo]

You're absolutely right about the N O I. It's done a tremendous amount of good in individual lives. I didn't want it confused with international Islam is all I meant by my remark.

Jazz, Gnosticism wasn't a "Religion with a capital R" as Islam or Christianity, etc. It had many shapes and forms, perhaps the one unifying thing that it had that was shared more freely than other facets was its cosmology, but even that varied. There wasn't a "Gnostic Religion" that stood up and announced itself in that way. It was a religion of individuals far more than a religion of organization. It didn't form heirarchies of priests and cardinals and deacons and lay persons and sextons. It was more underground than overground. It is not easy to pigeonhole. It was indeed present before Christianity, or at least I believe that from my studies. A gnostic element could be present as an element in a lot of other systems.

I'd encourage you if you are interested to do some reading. The best books are still the ones by Jonas and Rudolph I would say, and the Nag Hammadi Reader edited by Robinson.

Edited February 27, 2004 by jazzbo

[ghost of miles]

I read that there are flashbacks to the sermon. In fact, the actor playing Jesus was reportedly struck by lightening while shooting the sermon on the mount! If that's not a criticism, I don't know what is...

My mother said there were three incidents of people being struck by lightning while working on the set of The Passion... is this true?

How long till CHRIST II: THE RESURRECTION?

[Jazz]

Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth?

Well, I hope I don't sound equally smartassed with my answer, because this is really how I think. Or rather, truly how I think.

"Truth" is a word to describe the same concept that you used for the word "facts". You wouldn't call something a "fact" unless you believed it to be "true". Yes? No?

Yes, a fact is true, and can be proven to be so. How can religion be used to discover these facts? This seems to be like doing archeaology by reading books rather than getting out there and digging. I just don't see how it can accomplish anything.

And in response to Ray: Hercules cheats.

This is going to get me flamed, but points of view that are untested through disagreements are weak points of view. So..

Actually I disagree. I don't think facts can be proven true. Any proof of a fact depends on at least a few base assumptions that supposedly don't need to be proven true, because they are supposedly self evidently true. In other words, faith is needed in any amount of "proving" something.

[Dr. Rat]

Yes, a fact is true, and can be proven to be so.

Not really ... we could all be living in the Matrix!

And try proving we're not.

Ok. Back to the conspiracy theories!

--eric

[Jazzmoose]

This is going to get me flamed...

I'm lazier than you think...

[Jazz]

okay guys, I gotta split. It's lunch time and I'm hungry and that's a fact and it's also the truth. I didn't even have to use reason or logic to arrive at that conclusion so you might say it is a somewhat mystical hunger. See you guys on the flipside of the this!

[couw]

your talking about facts and truth just proves you guys are all out of touch with reality.

[Alexander]

Jazz:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Jesus was SPECIFICALLY sent to earth to atone for the sins of man. In other words, he was BORN a human so that he could LIVE as a human, and eventually DIE as a human. Now how much do you think that death would mean if he had lived until 90 (way beyond the human life span at the time, btw. Jesus would have been considered a pretty old man at 30) and died in his sleep? Not very. In fact, I doubt very much that we'd be talking about him today (if he existed, which I doubt) had he NOT died on the cross. So, just so we're getting things straight here: God, in order to save mankind, becomes human (Jesus) and dies on the cross. Everything, from birth to death, was a part of the plan. Every human being, therefore, acted in a specific way, taking specific actions, that would eventually end with Jesus getting his hands and feet ventilated. Now, where is the free will here? Let's say that Judas, excersizing his free will, says "No. I'm not going to betray my friend." and he doesn't. And Jesus doesn't die on the cross. Therefore he doesn't suffer. Therefore he dies in his sleep at 90 and nobody gets saved. So you're saying that it would have been a good thing for Judas NOT to betray Christ to his death, thus denying the rest of mankind salvation?

Let's use logic here:

If Jesus's death was both preordained AND a necessary sacrifice to save mankind, than no one involved is guilty because they were simply instruments of God's will. Remember what God did to Jonah when Jonah refused to act in accordance with God's will?

If Jesus's death was NOT preordained, then those responsible for killing him ARE guilty. But if you could jump Jesus without him seeing it coming, how divine WAS he anyway? I thought God was all-seeing and all-knowing?

Another possibility is this: Jesus's death WAS preordained, BUT the individuals involved had free will. In other words, SOMEONE was going to betray Jesus. If it wasn't Judas, then it would have been someone else. The actual betrayal and death was going to happen, but the individuals involved were subject to change. Still, if it was going to happen anyway, what difference does it make who acted in which part? Would the world be significantly different if Simon had betrayed Jesus instead of Judas (other than the fact that we'd say "Simon Goat" instead of "Judas Goat")?

[Jazzmoose]

okay guys, I gotta split. It's lunch time and I'm hungry and that's a fact and it's also the truth. I didn't even have to use reason or logic to arrive at that conclusion so you might say it is a somewhat mystical hunger. See you guys on the flipside of the this!

And I've got to go to the drug store and pick up my wife's perscriptions like I promised, or there will be no mystery about my fate...

[jazzypaul]

Jazz:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Jesus was SPECIFICALLY sent to earth to atone for the sins of man. In other words, he was BORN a human so that he could LIVE as a human, and eventually DIE as a human. Now how much do you think that death would mean if he had lived until 90 (way beyond the human life span at the time, btw. Jesus would have been considered a pretty old man at 30) and died in his sleep? Not very. In fact, I doubt very much that we'd be talking about him today (if he existed, which I doubt) had he NOT died on the cross. So, just so we're getting things straight here: God, in order to save mankind, becomes human (Jesus) and dies on the cross. Everything, from birth to death, was a part of the plan. Every human being, therefore, acted in a specific way, taking specific actions, that would eventually end with Jesus getting his hands and feet ventilated. Now, where is the free will here? Let's say that Judas, excersizing his free will, says "No. I'm not going to betray my friend." and he doesn't. And Jesus doesn't die on the cross. Therefore he doesn't suffer. Therefore he dies in his sleep at 90 and nobody gets saved. So you're saying that it would have been a good thing for Judas NOT to betray Christ to his death, thus denying the rest of mankind salvation?

Let's use logic here:

If Jesus's death was both preordained AND a necessary sacrifice to save mankind, than no one involved is guilty because they were simply instruments of God's will. Remember what God did to Jonah when Jonah refused to act in accordance with God's will?

If Jesus's death was NOT preordained, then those responsible for killing him ARE guilty. But if you could jump Jesus without him seeing it coming, how divine WAS he anyway? I thought God was all-seeing and all-knowing?

Another possibility is this: Jesus's death WAS preordained, BUT the individuals involved had free will. In other words, SOMEONE was going to betray Jesus. If it wasn't Judas, then it would have been someone else. The actual betrayal and death was going to happen, but the individuals involved were subject to change. Still, if it was going to happen anyway, what difference does it make who acted in which part? Would the world be significantly different if Simon had betrayed Jesus instead of Judas (other than the fact that we'd say "Simon Goat" instead of "Judas Goat")?

proof that nobody reads my posts...I already addressed this, and I believe this account is in Matthew, but without a Bible in front of me, the gospels get jumbled...

And yes, Judas WAS used to fulfill a prophecy, so I have a hard time thinking that he was going straight to hell for his actions. After all, the holy spirit left him as Jesus broke bread with him. Does this allow Satan to step in and do what he wants to do? You bet. Does that allow any room for Judas to be guilty in this situation? Of course not. He was a pawn.

Question answered...next debate topic please.

[Jazzmoose]

proof that nobody reads my posts...

Did you guys hear something?

[Jazz]

Jazz:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Jesus was SPECIFICALLY sent to earth to atone for the sins of man. In other words, he was BORN a human so that he could LIVE as a human, and eventually DIE as a human. Now how much do you think that death would mean if he had lived until 90 (way beyond the human life span at the time, btw. Jesus would have been considered a pretty old man at 30) and died in his sleep? Not very. In fact, I doubt very much that we'd be talking about him today (if he existed, which I doubt) had he NOT died on the cross. So, just so we're getting things straight here: God, in order to save mankind, becomes human (Jesus) and dies on the cross. Everything, from birth to death, was a part of the plan. Every human being, therefore, acted in a specific way, taking specific actions, that would eventually end with Jesus getting his hands and feet ventilated. Now, where is the free will here? Let's say that Judas, excersizing his free will, says "No. I'm not going to betray my friend." and he doesn't. And Jesus doesn't die on the cross. Therefore he doesn't suffer. Therefore he dies in his sleep at 90 and nobody gets saved. So you're saying that it would have been a good thing for Judas NOT to betray Christ to his death, thus denying the rest of mankind salvation?

Let's use logic here:

If Jesus's death was both preordained AND a necessary sacrifice to save mankind, than no one involved is guilty because they were simply instruments of God's will. Remember what God did to Jonah when Jonah refused to act in accordance with God's will?

If Jesus's death was NOT preordained, then those responsible for killing him ARE guilty. But if you could jump Jesus without him seeing it coming, how divine WAS he anyway? I thought God was all-seeing and all-knowing?

Another possibility is this: Jesus's death WAS preordained, BUT the individuals involved had free will. In other words, SOMEONE was going to betray Jesus. If it wasn't Judas, then it would have been someone else. The actual betrayal and death was going to happen, but the individuals involved were subject to change. Still, if it was going to happen anyway, what difference does it make who acted in which part? Would the world be significantly different if Simon had betrayed Jesus instead of Judas (other than the fact that we'd say "Simon Goat" instead of "Judas Goat")?

Alex,

I get the feeling you are responding to me with some pretty big assumptions about what I believe, probably based on the Christian dogma you've seen characterized in movies, television or possibly in people you've met.

I've tried responding to your post several times, but I can't seem to grasp your point. What is it that you are exactly trying to say? That Judas can't be held accountable for his actions because he was basically a pawn in a grander scheme, right?

Furthermore, you are saying that if Judas DID have a choice, the existence of that free will implies that God is not omniscient or omnipotent?

[Joe G]

Is that not the bottom line designation to call oneself a Christian--the belief that Jesus was the Son of God, and that He died for our sins?

For me, that's an totally irrelevant point if you're talking it in terms of "historical accuracy". It's as likely, historically, that Jesus moved to France or someplace w/Mary Magdaline, and raised a family as it is that he died and rose again. I think it's the lesson of the story that matters more than whether or not it's fact or fiction...

I like the way you think/feel. -_-

[RainyDay]

We killed him because he didn't want to become a doctor, that's why we

killed him.

--Lenny Bruce

Oh, no! I hate guilty laughter.

[chris olivarez]

No antisemitism?

From Reuters:

Denver Church 'Passion' Sign Provokes Protest

DENVER (Reuters) - A Denver Pentecostal church named "Lovingway" put up a sign that read "Jews killed the Lord Jesus," prompting about 100 people to march outside the church to protest the message before it was taken down.

The sign in front of the Lovingway United Pentecostal Church was put up on Wednesday, the same day the controversial movie "The Passion of the Christ" opened in cinemas across the United States.

Jewish groups have said the film, produced and directed by actor Mel Gibson, blames the crucifixion of Jesus on Jews. They fear the movie will spark anti-Semitism.

The 73-year-old pastor of the Denver church, Maurice Gordon, defended the sign and said it was aimed at encouraging people to read the Bible.

"It would be hateful if it pointed at anybody alive today. But this has been part of the record of 2,000 years," he told the Rocky Mountain News.

In 1993, when Pope John Paul II visited Denver for World Youth Day, the same Pentecostal church put up a sign that read "The anti-Christ is coming," a Denver television station reported.

Rev. B.E. Hale, Colorado district superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church International, apologized for the Denver church's sign, saying its message did not reflect the attitude of other Pentecostal churches in the group toward Jews.

"The United Pentecostal Church International believes that all of humanity was complicit in His crucifixion. According to our belief, neither the Jews nor the Romans had the power to kill Jesus. Jesus by his own admission laid down his life for the salvation of all humankind," the statement said.

The sign was taken down by church members on Wednesday night.

Whenever the mention of this film comes up I think of "Birth Of A Nation" and "Triumph Of The Will". All these films are to put it mildly -controversial and insidious."Passion Of The Christ" whether intentionally or unintentionally has the potential to fuel existing hatreds toward a certain group just like those other films did. I find the films manipulation of the emotions of people who have seen it a possible cause of concern.This isn't entertainment.What this is-at least to me at this point and time is something that is disturbing.

[Dan Gould]

I just got this in my in-box. Order now, supplies are limited!!!

Its the Nail Pendant!

"The “Nail” pendants come in two sizes and feature Isaiah 53:5 inscribed on the side. The 20" cord has a Nail pendant that is 1 7/8" in length and the 24" cord has a Nail pendant that is 2 5/8" in length."

[jazzbo]

Yes, I've seen some news stories about this. This is one of the most pernicious aspects of this film in my opinion, the merchandizing. That and the potential for misuse against "nonbelievers" of all types. . . .

[White Lightning]

Found it in my inbox a few days ago:

A man goes to see Mel Gibson's new movie, The Passion, and is inspired to

take his family to Israel to see the places where Jesus lived and died.

While on vacation his mother-in-law dies.

An undertaker in Tel Aviv explains that they can ship the body home to

Wisconsin at a cost of $10,000 or the mother-in-law could be buried in

Israel for US$500.

The man says, "We'll ship her home."

The undertaker asks, "Are you sure? That's an awfully big expense and we can

do a very nice burial here."

The man says, "Look, 2000 years ago they buried a guy here and three days

later he rose from the dead. I just can't take that chance."

[BERIGAN]

Found it in my inbox a few days ago:

A man goes to see Mel Gibson's new movie, The Passion, and is inspired to

take his family to Israel to see the places where Jesus lived and died.

While on vacation his mother-in-law dies.

An undertaker in Tel Aviv explains that they can ship the body home to

Wisconsin at a cost of $10,000 or the mother-in-law could be buried in

Israel for US$500.

The man says, "We'll ship her home."

The undertaker asks, "Are you sure? That's an awfully big expense and we can

do a very nice burial here."

The man says, "Look, 2000 years ago they buried a guy here and three days

later he rose from the dead. I just can't take that chance."

[maren]

I personally believe this question is moot. I believe that God ultimately chooses who to hold responsible regardless of whether they were compelled, pre-ordained, or in the complete excercise of their free will in whatever action they take.

Then God is a complete asshole. He sets up his plan so that Judas betrays Jesus, and then blames Judas for playing his part?

Well to answer that question I would have to know how God judged Judas, and I don't know that. Jesus did say "forgive them for they know not what they do".

I'm having a Bob Dylan moment here:

"Through many a dark hour

I been thinkin' 'bout this,

How Jesus Christ was

Betrayed by a kiss.

But I can't think for you,

You have to decide

Whether Judas Iscariot had

God on his side."

[chris olivarez]

I just got this in my in-box. Order now, supplies are limited!!!

Its the Nail Pendant!

"The “Nail” pendants come in two sizes and feature Isaiah 53:5 inscribed on the side. The 20" cord has a Nail pendant that is 1 7/8" in length and the 24" cord has a Nail pendant that is 2 5/8" in length."

Oh man that's ill!!1

[7/4]

I just got this in my in-box.  Order now, supplies are limited!!! 

Its the Nail Pendant!

"The “Nail” pendants come in two sizes and feature Isaiah 53:5 inscribed on the side. The 20" cord has a Nail pendant that is 1 7/8" in length and the 24" cord has a Nail pendant that is 2 5/8" in length."

   

Oh man that's ill!!1

That's one promo.

Another spam I received features many detailed pages from the film. Lots of gore, I'm sure.

[Jazzmoose]

Well, this thread just goes to show you, as was said in "The Big Lebowski"...

Nobody fucks with the Jesus!

[7/4]

Well, this thread just goes to show you, as was said in "The Big Lebowski"...

Nobody fucks with the Jesus!