Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Oh and about pre-destination. If you want to look at it that way you definitely could, but I still think there is a certain amount of choice involved as far as our own actions go. Remember, things like "pre-destination" and "free-will" are just simplistic concepts used by people who want things to be easily quantified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Remember, things like "pre-destination" and "free-will" are just simplistic concepts used by people who want things to be easily quantified. As is religion itself in my book, but that's another story... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I personally believe this question is moot. I believe that God ultimately chooses who to hold responsible regardless of whether they were compelled, pre-ordained, or in the complete excercise of their free will in whatever action they take. Then God is a complete asshole. He sets up his plan so that Judas betrays Jesus, and then blames Judas for playing his part? Well to answer that question I would have to know how God judged Judas, and I don't know that. Jesus did say "forgive them for they know not what they do". But, as a general concept, yeah I believe God has the right to judge how he chooses regardless. Look at the example of Pharaoh, when his heart was hardened against the slaves. If that describes a God you dislike (or hate) then that is definitely your decision. I don't want to say too much more about this because, to be honest, I am not confident in the truth of what I believe. I could totally be misrepresenting God and that is not something I desire to do at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrome Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Why is it that seemingly every Buddhist and seemingly every (devout) Black Muslim that I've ever met seems to adhere to Jesus' teachings more than the Christians do? Why are THEY the ones living pious lives, being sure to be respectful of their fellow man, giving when it's time to give, and taking only when it's time to take? Like the pious and devout Rev. Farrakhan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Well, my understanding of Gnosticism is that it is pretty much as you describe, and there is a Gnostic undercurrent in Paul and in the Gospel of John, and there were Gnostic heresies that were a powerful force in the early church, yes. But I believe that it predated Christianity, there is much Gnostic thought in the beliefs of the civilized world five centuries or less before Christ. . . . I guess those definitions are fine that you have there. Hmm. I thought that the specific religion of Gnosticism originated from Christianity about a couple hundred years or so after the death of Christ. Mysticism/Esotericism has definitely been around much longer than Christianity. That is to say, the idea of divine enlightment or, lacking a divinity, enlightment from a spiritual source rather than through reasoning or logic. I always thought that Gnosticism was a type of mysticism that arose specifically from the Gospels. Am I completely mistaken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Chrome, don't blame Islam for "The Nation of Islam." Those are two separate belief systems, as Malcolm X found out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Remember, things like "pre-destination" and "free-will" are just simplistic concepts used by people who want things to be easily quantified. As is religion itself in my book, but that's another story... I think it depends on how you approach religion Jazzmoose. If you approach it as a placebo used to perpetuate cultural myths and a comfortable self image then I would agree. If you approach it as an honest search for truth then I would disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I mean, I understand searching for facts, but "truth"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Jazz, I won't say you are completely mistaken. I will say that I believe that Gnosticism in one form or another is older than Christianity. It may be considerably older. Gnosticism DID become entwined with Christian thought in the first century, but most of it was stamped out of the writings of the "one true faith" (i.e. the Catholic religion of the Empire) found the time of the Council of Nicea in 312 a.d. Though it still had power to seduce the minds of men. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrome Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 No blame meant, Jazzbo ... I just meant to point up the fact that devout/pious/etc. often goes hand in hand with some not very Christlike behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth? Well, I hope I don't sound equally smartassed with my answer, because this is really how I think. Or rather, truly how I think. "Truth" is a word to describe the same concept that you used for the word "facts". You wouldn't call something a "fact" unless you believed it to be "true". Yes? No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth? Truth is what you have left over when you take the facts out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth? Truth is what you have left over when you take the facts out. I hope no one is going to drag reality into this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Jazz, I won't say you are completely mistaken. I will say that I believe that Gnosticism in one form or another is older than Christianity. It may be considerably older. Gnosticism DID become entwined with Christian thought in the first century, but most of it was stamped out of the writings of the "one true faith" (i.e. the Catholic religion of the Empire) found the time of the Council of Nicea in 312 a.d. Though it still had power to seduce the minds of men. . . My question would be this: did Gnosticism as a unified philosophy exist before Christianity? Did they call themsleves Gnostics or were they just people who aligned themselves with mystic thought? I am very interested in this subject, Gnosticism is something I have been really needing to learn more about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 You guys shouldn't get so worked up over this stuff. It's all mythology anyway. So who'd win in a fair fight: Thor, Hercules, or Jesus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth? What I say is the truth. What these other guys say, it might be amusing, but unless it exactly corresponds to what I say, it is untrue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Now I'd better split before the shit hits my fan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzypaul Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Why is it that seemingly every Buddhist and seemingly every (devout) Black Muslim that I've ever met seems to adhere to Jesus' teachings more than the Christians do? Why are THEY the ones living pious lives, being sure to be respectful of their fellow man, giving when it's time to give, and taking only when it's time to take? Like the pious and devout Rev. Farrakhan? Every religious sect has its wingnuts. However, having spent a large chunk of time on Chicago's south side, which is essentially home base for the Nation of Islam, I can tell you, a lot of the followers of the NOI are sincere and wonderful people. It's a given that Farakhan is a nut. But isn't Falwell as well, at the end of the day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 You guys shouldn't get so worked up over this stuff. It's all mythology anyway. So who'd win in a fair fight: Thor, Hercules, or Jesus? Marquis of Queensbury rules? (Of course, you've only got to obey the rules as long as they feel right to you) --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrome Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Facts are simple and facts are straight Facts are lazy and facts are late Facts all come with points of view Facts don't do what I want them to Facts just twist the truth around Facts are living turned inside out Facts are getting the best of them Facts are nothing on the face of things Facts don't stain the furniture Facts go out and slam the door Facts are written all over your face Facts continue to change their shape --Talking Heads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth? Truth is what you have left over when you take the facts out. No, wait a minute, that's Reagan... Truth is... Oh hell, I don't know! If you have to know, you'll never ask! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth? Well, I hope I don't sound equally smartassed with my answer, because this is really how I think. Or rather, truly how I think. "Truth" is a word to describe the same concept that you used for the word "facts". You wouldn't call something a "fact" unless you believed it to be "true". Yes? No? Yes, a fact is true, and can be proven to be so. How can religion be used to discover these facts? This seems to be like doing archeaology by reading books rather than getting out there and digging. I just don't see how it can accomplish anything. And in response to Ray: Hercules cheats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 So who'd win in a fair fight: Thor, Hercules, or Jesus? Ditka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrome Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 But isn't Falwell as well, at the end of the day? Yep, once again proving piety and being Christlike have nothing in common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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