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Posted

Oh and about pre-destination. If you want to look at it that way you definitely could, but I still think there is a certain amount of choice involved as far as our own actions go.

Remember, things like "pre-destination" and "free-will" are just simplistic concepts used by people who want things to be easily quantified.

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Posted

Remember, things like "pre-destination" and "free-will" are just simplistic concepts used by people who want things to be easily quantified.

As is religion itself in my book, but that's another story...

Posted

I personally believe this question is moot. I believe that God ultimately chooses who to hold responsible regardless of whether they were compelled, pre-ordained, or in the complete excercise of their free will in whatever action they take.

Then God is a complete asshole. He sets up his plan so that Judas betrays Jesus, and then blames Judas for playing his part?

Well to answer that question I would have to know how God judged Judas, and I don't know that. Jesus did say "forgive them for they know not what they do".

But, as a general concept, yeah I believe God has the right to judge how he chooses regardless. Look at the example of Pharaoh, when his heart was hardened against the slaves.

If that describes a God you dislike (or hate) then that is definitely your decision.

I don't want to say too much more about this because, to be honest, I am not confident in the truth of what I believe. I could totally be misrepresenting God and that is not something I desire to do at all.

Posted

Why is it that seemingly every Buddhist and seemingly every (devout) Black Muslim that I've ever met seems to adhere to Jesus' teachings more than the Christians do? Why are THEY the ones living pious lives, being sure to be respectful of their fellow man, giving when it's time to give, and taking only when it's time to take?

Like the pious and devout Rev. Farrakhan?

Posted

Well, my understanding of Gnosticism is that it is pretty much as you describe, and there is a Gnostic undercurrent in Paul and in the Gospel of John, and there were Gnostic heresies that were a powerful force in the early church, yes. But I believe that it predated Christianity, there is much Gnostic thought in the beliefs of the civilized world five centuries or less before Christ. . . .

I guess those definitions are fine that you have there.

Hmm. I thought that the specific religion of Gnosticism originated from Christianity about a couple hundred years or so after the death of Christ.

Mysticism/Esotericism has definitely been around much longer than Christianity. That is to say, the idea of divine enlightment or, lacking a divinity, enlightment from a spiritual source rather than through reasoning or logic.

I always thought that Gnosticism was a type of mysticism that arose specifically from the Gospels. Am I completely mistaken?

Posted

Remember, things like "pre-destination" and "free-will" are just simplistic concepts used by people who want things to be easily quantified.

As is religion itself in my book, but that's another story...

I think it depends on how you approach religion Jazzmoose. If you approach it as a placebo used to perpetuate cultural myths and a comfortable self image then I would agree.

If you approach it as an honest search for truth then I would disagree.

Posted

Jazz, I won't say you are completely mistaken. I will say that I believe that Gnosticism in one form or another is older than Christianity. It may be considerably older.

Gnosticism DID become entwined with Christian thought in the first century, but most of it was stamped out of the writings of the "one true faith" (i.e. the Catholic religion of the Empire) found the time of the Council of Nicea in 312 a.d. Though it still had power to seduce the minds of men. . . ^_^

Posted

Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth?

Well, I hope I don't sound equally smartassed with my answer, because this is really how I think. Or rather, truly how I think. ;)

"Truth" is a word to describe the same concept that you used for the word "facts". You wouldn't call something a "fact" unless you believed it to be "true". Yes? No?

Posted

Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth?

Truth is what you have left over when you take the facts out.

Posted

Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth?

Truth is what you have left over when you take the facts out.

I hope no one is going to drag reality into this...

Posted

Jazz, I won't say you are completely mistaken. I will say that I believe that Gnosticism in one form or another is older than Christianity. It may be considerably older.

Gnosticism DID become entwined with Christian thought in the first century, but most of it was stamped out of the writings of the "one true faith" (i.e. the Catholic religion of the Empire) found the time of the Council of Nicea in 312 a.d. Though it still had power to seduce the minds of men. . . ^_^

My question would be this: did Gnosticism as a unified philosophy exist before Christianity? Did they call themsleves Gnostics or were they just people who aligned themselves with mystic thought?

I am very interested in this subject, Gnosticism is something I have been really needing to learn more about.

Posted

Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth?

What I say is the truth.

What these other guys say, it might be amusing, but unless it exactly corresponds to what I say, it is untrue.

Posted

Why is it that seemingly every Buddhist and seemingly every (devout) Black Muslim that I've ever met seems to adhere to Jesus' teachings more than the Christians do?  Why are THEY the ones living pious lives, being sure to be respectful of their fellow man, giving when it's time to give, and taking only when it's time to take?

Like the pious and devout Rev. Farrakhan?

Every religious sect has its wingnuts. However, having spent a large chunk of time on Chicago's south side, which is essentially home base for the Nation of Islam, I can tell you, a lot of the followers of the NOI are sincere and wonderful people. It's a given that Farakhan is a nut. But isn't Falwell as well, at the end of the day?

Posted

You guys shouldn't get so worked up over this stuff. It's all mythology anyway.

So who'd win in a fair fight: Thor, Hercules, or Jesus? :g

Marquis of Queensbury rules?

(Of course, you've only got to obey the rules as long as they feel right to you)

--eric

Posted

Facts are simple and facts are straight

Facts are lazy and facts are late

Facts all come with points of view

Facts don't do what I want them to

Facts just twist the truth around

Facts are living turned inside out

Facts are getting the best of them

Facts are nothing on the face of things

Facts don't stain the furniture

Facts go out and slam the door

Facts are written all over your face

Facts continue to change their shape

--Talking Heads

Posted

Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth?

Truth is what you have left over when you take the facts out.

No, wait a minute, that's Reagan...

Truth is...

Oh hell, I don't know!

If you have to know, you'll never ask! :g:g:g

Posted

Not trying to be a smart ass here (although the way this thread started, it's sure going to sound like it!) but what is truth?

Well, I hope I don't sound equally smartassed with my answer, because this is really how I think. Or rather, truly how I think. ;)

"Truth" is a word to describe the same concept that you used for the word "facts". You wouldn't call something a "fact" unless you believed it to be "true". Yes? No?

Yes, a fact is true, and can be proven to be so. How can religion be used to discover these facts? This seems to be like doing archeaology by reading books rather than getting out there and digging. I just don't see how it can accomplish anything.

And in response to Ray: Hercules cheats. ;)

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