Dr. Rat Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Jim, I hear you about that struggle. For me the biggest difficulty lies in the adherence to the fact that this man was specially chosen by God to be the vehicle for man's salvation, and if you don't go through him you don't get the salvation. My heart just doesn't believe in such an exclusionary God. I can stand right smack dab behind Jesus' teachings and say HOT DARN THIS IS REALLY THE STUFF SO HARD TO FOLLOW IN THIS WORLD BUT THERE'S NO GOOD EXCUSE NOT TO (I'VE GOT A MILLION THOUGH). But I can't stand behind that exclusive personal salvation thing. I've been really struggling lately. I keep obsessing on the thought that according to my faith, my son could end up in Hell. If that happened, there is no way I could hold nothing but hatred towards God. Maybe it's time to read some of the Nag Hammidi texts again... When I look at the provenance of religious strictures and texts, (how, historically, they get made) I think you've got to question deeply the "rule" side of conflicts like this. Strict Catholics (what I'm most familiar with) always press the "If you don't have the rules, you don't have the religion" line, but there has to be more to the religion than that. I have some respect for spirituality--my uncle, whom I admire a lot, is deeply religious--but I think sometimes you get to break the rules for the right reasons (not, say, because you are lazy or can't control yourself, but for good reasons). I think Christianity is all about changing the rules, anyhow. Which is why my uncle eats shellfish -- though gout may change him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 By fate?! Fate nothing! If, indeed, Jesus Christ was the Son of God sent to redeem our sins, then Judas Iscariot, the Jews, and the Romans - everybody who helped nail the sucker up, in other words - were playing a role that was assigned by no less a figure than God Himself! That's why I could never figure out the stuff about Judas' "betrayal" or the "murder" of Christ by the Jews...If Jesus was truly the Son of God (and could walk on water, heal the sick, etc.) then there's no WAY anybody could kill him unless he specifically WANTED to be killed. Wasn't that the point of the sacrifice? That Jesus LET himself be killed? Can't have it both ways, guys. Either the big J died as a part of a larger plan, which absolves everybody involved (it was preordained, right? Didn't Jesus announce at the Last Supper that he would be betrayed to his death?), or he didn't, in which case he wasn't all-powerful. This is the great thing about religion. It doesn't make any sense when you try to work it out, so you're supposed to accept it - contradictions and all - on faith. Wow good point Alex. If someone has the power to defend themselves but chooses not to (like, say a black belt martial artist) it absolves their murderer of the responsibility of the crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 By fate?! Fate nothing! If, indeed, Jesus Christ was the Son of God sent to redeem our sins, then Judas Iscariot, the Jews, and the Romans - everybody who helped nail the sucker up, in other words - were playing a role that was assigned by no less a figure than God Himself! That's why I could never figure out the stuff about Judas' "betrayal" or the "murder" of Christ by the Jews...If Jesus was truly the Son of God (and could walk on water, heal the sick, etc.) then there's no WAY anybody could kill him unless he specifically WANTED to be killed. Wasn't that the point of the sacrifice? That Jesus LET himself be killed? Can't have it both ways, guys. Either the big J died as a part of a larger plan, which absolves everybody involved (it was preordained, right? Didn't Jesus announce at the Last Supper that he would be betrayed to his death?), or he didn't, in which case he wasn't all-powerful. This is the great thing about religion. It doesn't make any sense when you try to work it out, so you're supposed to accept it - contradictions and all - on faith. Wow good point Alex. If someone has the power to defend themselves but chooses not to (like, say a black belt martial artist) it absolves their murderer of the responsibility of the crime. I beleive an omniscient, omnipotent deity will admit of no metaphorical substitutes, black belt or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Honestly, I'm not making him sound like Gates. That is how it is, that exclusionary, in the writings of Paul, is it not? It did sound a bit like that to me, though not exactly seriously meant. You know, 21st Century man's take on Christianity. It was "if you don't go through him" that made me go there, I think - The idea of going through provider x at the expense of all others, brought up Gates. (And I'm using a cross, of all things to illustrate my point). I (the atheist) was gently tweaking you (hopefully gentle, anyway.). Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Okay then. Since JESUS had the ability to defend himself and didn't it absolves his killers of responsibility. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 If someone has the power to defend themselves but chooses not to (like, say a black belt martial artist) it absolves their murderer of the responsibility of the crime. Where were you when the Manson trial was going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 AB, my grandmother struggled with that after my grandfather, wasting away from pancreatic cancer, took his own life suddenly. She felt great profound sorrow because she felt that now she and her husband of over fifty years would not be together in the afterlife, she was extremely devout and this was what she had always been taught. I'm not sure how because I wasn't really able to talk to her about this often but she seemed to come to believe that was not the case before she suddenly died of a stroke about eight months after her husband died. Again, I just can't believe in my heart in a God that would be so exclusionary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 If someone has the power to defend themselves but chooses not to (like, say a black belt martial artist) it absolves their murderer of the responsibility of the crime. Where were you when the Manson trial was going on? aha!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Oh, I don't mind the tweaking Simon at all. Kindof a gnosticismic atheist myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 a gnostic atheist??? What does it MEAN?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Okay then. Since JESUS had the ability to defend himself and didn't it absolves his killers of responsibility. Right? Well, I'm just trying to say that having control over a situation, having created every element of that situation, having pre-ordained that situation for symbolic purposes--that's different than having the opportunity to defend yourself. Dispensing blame here just seems complete beside the point. --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 a gnostic atheist??? What does it MEAN?? I think the Gnostics invented the phrase "If you have to ask, you'll never know." --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Unfortunately, we're no longer allowed to aspire to this soubriquet: NO one will ever be "The Carbondale Christ," for instance. --eric Great. First Berigan tells me I can't be a serial killer, and now this. Thanks a lot, guys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Okay then. Since JESUS had the ability to defend himself and didn't it absolves his killers of responsibility. Right? Well, I'm just trying to say that having control over a situation, having created every element of that situation, having pre-ordained that situation for symbolic purposes--that's different than having the opportunity to defend yourself. Dispensing blame here just seems complete beside the point. --eric I guess that just isn't the logic I get out of the Bible. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Also, the whole point is that Jesus' death paid for the sins of everyone including the people who crucified him. I'm not sure where this blame assigning that you and Alex are talking about is coming from. That was my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 a gnostic atheist??? What does it MEAN?? I think the Gnostics invented the phrase "If you have to ask, you'll never know." --eric I was just under the impression that gnosticism and atheism were mutually exclusive viewpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Thanks Lon! I guess that's one thing I'm wrestling with. I can't believe God would be so exclusionary also. I keep thinking of George Bernard Shaw's "Man and Superman". The story of Don Juan in Hell really applies to me. Just as he ended up in Hell because he enjoyed the company there better, I think this applies to me also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrome Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 having pre-ordained that situation for symbolic purposes-- Serious question from a non-Christian: Exactly how "pre-ordained" was it? I mean, I know there is a lot of debate regarding free will, etc., in religion ... how do Christians who believe in free will reconcile that with the idea this was all pre-ordained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 You're not supposed to look that closely, Chrome. Remember the "preordained" bit preceeded the more modern Western outlook of Free Will and Individuality by quite a few centuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 having pre-ordained that situation for symbolic purposes-- Serious question from a non-Christian: Exactly how "pre-ordained" was it? I mean, I know there is a lot of debate regarding free will, etc., in religion ... how do Christians who believe in free will reconcile that with the idea this was all pre-ordained? It isn't easy! Well, theologically the Catholics end up throwing it into the "mystery" category, but not before all kinds of theo-philosophical gymnastics. Before the emergence of football, this was the big sport in Christian Europe. --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 having pre-ordained that situation for symbolic purposes-- Serious question from a non-Christian: Exactly how "pre-ordained" was it? I mean, I know there is a lot of debate regarding free will, etc., in religion ... how do Christians who believe in free will reconcile that with the idea this was all pre-ordained? I personally believe this question is moot. I believe that God ultimately chooses who to hold responsible regardless of whether they were compelled, pre-ordained, or in the complete excercise of their free will in whatever action they take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Well, Jazz I should have said "an atheist leaning towards gnostic thought." I'm using "gnostic" in the sense of "Gnosticism" which is an ancient religious thought/belief that is a little complicated to go into here and now. I think you were confusing "gnostic" (knowing) with "agnostic" (not knowing). Agnostics and atheists usually get dumped together in a big punch bowl. Hey, if God chooses who is responsible, it's preordained! That predestination thing is a real closed system. . . wow, it's some serious mindfuck. This was a big part of some Judaistic thought before Christianity, and a lot of other ancient religious thought. It's not native to Christianity though it did come back really strongly into some early Protestant systems of thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzypaul Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 AB -- I'm going through quite a bit of struggle myself right now with faith. If there is a higher power, and I tend to think there is, then The Judeo-Christian idea of God seems, to me anyway, to be the right one. It seems to make the most sense. HOWEVER...this is the part that kills me... why is it that most of the Christians that I meet/interact with (and I said MOST, not ALL) are complete assholes? Where in the New Testament or Old Testament does it say force your beliefs down someone else's throat? Where does it say that the interpretation means more than the actual word? Where does it say that one of the teletubbies is gay, that jazz is satan's music because it glorifies the self instead of God (a pastor told me that once; I don't go to that church anymore), or that our leaders should be trying to cuddle up to meglomaniac CEO's? AND... Why is it that seemingly every Buddhist and seemingly every (devout) Black Muslim that I've ever met seems to adhere to Jesus' teachings more than the Christians do? Why are THEY the ones living pious lives, being sure to be respectful of their fellow man, giving when it's time to give, and taking only when it's time to take? So much of this makes so little sense. It boggles my mind, and it's been driving me to tears lately. I can't get past the idea that there IS a higher power. But I can't stand the idea that I might turn out to be a Jerry Falwell type that wants to live a life with blinders on because the whole world is so unholy. That's utter bullshit, and I can't live like that. But I can't live thinking that everything isn't part of a bigger puzzle either. Now...as for Alexander...personally, I can't see how in the world Christians can believe in Free Will AT ALL. God is Omniscient and Omnipresent. He knows everything that's going to happen, before it happens, so we can't really change anything. And yes, Judas WAS used to fulfill a prophecy, so I have a hard time thinking that he was going straight to hell for his actions. After all, the holy spirit left him as Jesus broke bread with him. Does this allow Satan to step in and do what he wants to do? You bet. Does that allow any room for Judas to be guilty in this situation? Of course not. He was a pawn. Just my $0.02. Fire away and tell me how foolish I am now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Well, Jazz I should have said "an atheist leaning towards gnostic thought." I'm using "gnostic" in the sense of "Gnosticism" which is an ancient religious thought/belief that is a little complicated to go into here and now. I think you were confusing "gnostic" (knowing) with "agnostic" (not knowing). Agnostics and atheists usually get dumped together in a big punch bowl. Hey, if God chooses who is responsible, it's preordained! That predestination thing is a real closed system. . . wow, it's some serious mindfuck. This was a big part of some Judaistic thought before Christianity, and a lot of other ancient religious thought. It's not native to Christianity though it did come back really strongly into some early Protestant systems of thought. Thank you for expanding Jazzbo! Since you would obviously be a good person to ask, please correct me if I am mistaken on any of these definitions. Atheist - Anyone who disbelieves in a higher power for lack of proof. Higher power includes any "God" concept, the idea of a "soul", reincarnation etc etc... Gnosticism - An esoteric philosophy that centers around divine enlightenment and the belief that truth is arrived at through spiritual means rather than reasoning. I also understand that Gnosticism has certain Christian roots and a pretty long history but unfortunately I am unfamiliar with these. Therefore, I know for certain my understanding of Gnosticism is pretty limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I personally believe this question is moot. I believe that God ultimately chooses who to hold responsible regardless of whether they were compelled, pre-ordained, or in the complete excercise of their free will in whatever action they take. Then God is a complete asshole. He sets up his plan so that Judas betrays Jesus, and then blames Judas for playing his part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Well, my understanding of Gnosticism is that it is pretty much as you describe, and there is a Gnostic undercurrent in Paul and in the Gospel of John, and there were Gnostic heresies that were a powerful force in the early church, yes. But I believe that it predated Christianity, there is much Gnostic thought in the beliefs of the civilized world five centuries or less before Christ. . . . I guess those definitions are fine that you have there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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