jazzbo Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 (edited) It's all copacetic here on the Strayhorn Planet, at least on the surface. . . . Strays deserves his own thread, equal billing in a way with the Duke now that there's an Ellingtonian Corner thanks to Ubu. More and more I am fascinated with Strays' universe of sound. Before I went to work today I listened to an lp burn of "The Peaceful Side of Billy Strayhorn." (I don't believe the liner notes to the reissue cd; this doesn't sound like pseudo-stereo to me but I could be wrong). It's a great way to start a day. The whole atmosphere that it creates is one I can use a bubble suit filled with. . . . Any other Strayhorn fans? (I'm hoping that's a rhetorical question!) Edited February 26, 2004 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Sorry, can't get w/THE PEACEFUL SIDE yet, still trying after a lot of years, but that's an exception. How 'bout the Duke/Strayhorn quartets? Is that stuff wack, or what? Strayhorn, I think was a very specific color (or more accurately, set of colors) in the overall Ellintonian pallate, but those colors were primary for over a quarter century. The Strayhorn dissonances are dissonances in "name" only! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I really like the fullblown Strayhorn alone things tons. The four cds on Challenge by the Dutch Radio Orchestra are just amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I hear you. Sometimes, SOMETIMES, I hear a "similarity" in his things that makes me realize why working with/for Duke was a blessing for both of them. But putting that "similarity" aside, the guy's sense of color and texture through both voicing (the actual notes played) and orchestration (the combinations of what instruments play what notes) remains mind boggling to me, moreso than Duke's, really, and that's saying something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Thank goodness we had them both. It's amazing that they worked as well together as they did, and it's really hard to decipher what is what and there really is a manner in which the two combined are better than anything. . . . Even stuff that he did at seventeen is so damned sophisticated it shames nearly everyone! He's part of the reason I'm such a glutton for Ellington Orchestra material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I think the current idolitry of BS is an error. I think ultimately he was a (usefull) negative in the Ellington world. BS was an interesting "colorist" but a "song writer" which I see as a negative influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Planet? Interesting concept, that jazz luminaries should have a planet named after them. I'll think that over here on Konitz IV. (Just over from Mobley Prime.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedR Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Chuck, Is that because you feel Ellington became too dependent on him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 May I bring this old BNBB thread ´bout SweatPea´s contribution to the orchestra and how he changed Duke´s compositions? Note Chuck hasn´t changed his opinion… Author Topic: Billy Strayhorn on his own ghost of miles Member Member # 620 posted February 07, 2003 04:34 PM I came across a marked-down copy of Strays' LUSH LIFE (Red Baron) today and picked it up, realizing that I sadly lack any solo titles of his. Anybody have THE PEACEFUL SIDE (which I think may be out of print), the Verve date w/J. Hodges and Orchestra, or the CUE record and care to offer comment? -------------------- I should be able to love my country, and to love justice too--Albert Camus Posts: 1450 | From: Bloomington, IN, USA | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged joe medjuck Member Member # 2231 posted February 07, 2003 04:41 PM I have both. The Peaceful Side is quite distinctive. It could be dismissed as mood music. I love it. The Hodges record is a very good big band record. There's some controversy as to whether or not Duke was involved. Posts: 230 | From: Santa Barbara | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Chuck Nessa Member Member # 422 posted February 07, 2003 04:44 PM Peaceful Side is harmless and melodic. The CUE record is a good Hodges small band record and the Verve big band date is dandy. Sorry if I come off as a "faint" Strayhorn fan, but I'll never forgive him for turning Duke from a "composer" to a "song writer". While he provided a lot of practical help to Ellington, I feel he was ultimately a detriment. Posts: 2209 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged Tony Jerant Member Member # 212 posted February 07, 2003 05:23 PM Interesting take, Chuck. Any elaboration? I enjoy PEACEFUL SIDE, a modest little thing, nice for a quiet evening. Haven't heard the others. Posts: 2995 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Chuck Nessa Member Member # 422 posted February 07, 2003 05:26 PM I don't know how to be clearer about my previous post. Do you disagree about something? If so, argue. Posts: 2209 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged Tony Jerant Member Member # 212 posted February 07, 2003 05:29 PM Man, are people touchy around here sometimes - I was trying to have a conversation! I thought it was an interesting observation, one that I hadn't made myself and really didn't fully understand, and thought you might care to provide a little additional insight. I'm always up for a new way of looking at things, and maybe learning something new (you have after all been involved with jazz a lot longer than I have). Have a nice weekend. Posts: 2995 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged PD Member Member # 1816 posted February 07, 2003 05:36 PM There's not much "independant" Strayhorn.. Peaceful. is well described as moody Mood music. Cue was one of the Stanley Dance Felsted dates. I think he wanted it to be a typical Hodges small group, which it is. Initially for contractual reasons the record came out under Strayhorn's name, and Hodges was there as Cue Porter. Posts: 2439 | From: Woodinville WA 98052 USA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged Chuck Nessa Member Member # 422 posted February 07, 2003 05:37 PM Sorry if I jumped on you but I believe what I said. If anyone cares to argue, I'm here. As I said, I don't see how my message could be clearer about my feelings. Strayhorn was a talented arranger, but as a composer seemed to be confined by the "song form". He produced a couple of "hits" for Duke, and things changed. Previously Ellington's compositions were "broader" than "songs" nomatter the bar length. Things changed after BS. Not all the changes were positive in my mind. Sleep well tonight Tony. Posts: 2209 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted February 07, 2003 05:54 PM Well, I don't want to argue, but it seems to me that Duke was already writing "songs" before Strayhorn came aboard, and continued writing non-song pieces after, at least as much as the post-WWII market would allow. OTOH, although I have a fairly good knowledge of Ellingtonia and the persoalities, by no means is my knowledge even close to comprehensive, so I'd like to hear an elaboration of how things changed, and how much of that change was due to Strayhorn's influence, direct or indirect, compared to meeting the demands of a changing market. Admittedly, this is an idea I've never considered, but I'll certainly not dismiss it - I don't have the knowledge to do so. I will agree that Strayhorn by and large seemed to be more of a "niche" writer than Duke in terms of form, "mood", and melodic content. Then again, compared to Duke almost everybody is! But yeah, Strayhorn's music as we know it definitely has a character that seems to be an elaboration of one aspect of Ellington's total pallate. [ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: JSngry ] Posts: 9913 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Lawrence Kart Member Member # 2230 posted February 07, 2003 08:36 PM Walter van de Leur's recent book "Something To Live For: The Music of Billy Strayhorn" (Oxford) makes several points that don't necessarily contradict Chuck's lack of enthusiasm for Strayhorn's work but probably should be thrown into the hopper. First, a great deal of Ellington's latter-day music, including some of the best, was actually composed and/or arranged by Strayhorn, a fact that Ellington and some of his associates often chose to obscure but one that autograph scores confirm. For example, Strayhorn compositions include: "Bluebird of Delhi," "Isfahan," and "Agra" from "Far East Suite," movements 1,2,4,5,8,9 of "Nutcracker Suite," movements 1,7,9,11 of "Such Sweet Thunder," movements 1,2,4,5 of "Peer Gynt Suite," etc. Second, van de Leur explains in convincing detail that Strayhorn's compositional methods differed quite a bit from Ellington's, structurally and harmonically (e.g. "Strayhorn's approach to form was strongly developmental, where Ellington tends to rely on contrast. The almost caesura-less flow encountered in most Strayhorn scores is virtually absent in Ellington's writings.") Third, much of the commonly held belief that Strayhorn's music blended imperceptibly into Ellington's (and vice versa) during their years together is based partly on Strayhorn not being given (or not taking) credit for that which was his and partly on the fact that the orchestra both men were writing for had such a inherently strong coloration, which of course Ellington had created/assembled. The previously unrecorded Strayhorn compositions and arrangments that appear on several albums by the Dutch Jazz Orchestra on the Challenge label -- "Portrait of a Silk Thread" and two or three others that I can't put my hands on right now -- are definitely worth hearing and are among the best evidence of Strayhorn's individuality and stature. On the other hand, no doubt in my mind that Ellington was the far more important figure. Posts: 92 | From: Highland Park, Il. | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Lon, thanks for creating this planet! EKE, thanks for bringing up that old thread. No time yet to read it. Regarding Strayhorn: I just got the Jazz Scene 2CD set (what a marvellous package), and I was really delighted by the few Strayhorn sides on disc 2! Also the few other things I have with him on piano (the small group sides on the Webster & strings set, some with Hodges) are beautiful. ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 (edited) I'll grant that Chuck is correct that Strayhorn influenced change in Ellington, I just think that change was good. As Tony mentioned before, Ellington was writing songs before, and Ellington had a real and serious need to have singers for songs in his band and Billy's arrangements for these were top-notch and a boon to the Orchestra which had to compete with the other bands for attention for vocalists. I also think that a lot of Strayhorn's work is largely unnoticed as his, and the contrast that he provided to Duke's music within arrangements made for strong and interesting pieces. And the individual compositions he presented are wonderful. To my way of thinking there's a chance without Swee'pea the Orchestra may never have made it into the fifties in the manner that it did, and we would not have the rich body of work we do have to study and enjoy today. Hey, I'm no fan of the AEC, and if they had had a Strayhorn-like organizational influence and more form for me to perceive I would like their work more. Yet Chuck loves these guys to pieces. So there's different approaches and different tastes. I've been wearing mine for a while, I like them, I know Chuck feels the same way. Edited February 26, 2004 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 The notes of the Reprise Ellington box try to single out which arrangements were done by Duke and which by Strayhorn - if they're correct, in those years most of the outstanding arrangements (all those pop tunes, Mary Poppins etc) were done by Strayhorn. And he really works wonders on some of them! ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedR Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Thanks for bringing up that old thread EKE. I hadn't seen it before. My previous question to Chuck is redundant. These forums sure are thought provoking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maren Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Anyone else read the David Hajdu biography of BS, Lush Life? A good one, I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I've definitely read it. I've even read a screenplay adapted from the biography, which would make a very interesting movie and probably will never be made. Strays was an amazing individual! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I think the current idolatry of BS is an error. I think ultimately he was a (useful) negative in the Ellington world. BS was an interesting "colorist" but a "song writer" which I see as a negative influence. My god! I think I agree with Chuck Nessa about something! Anyhow, I wonder: The autograph scores mentioned in the reposting--this is defintive evidence that Strayhorn composed these pieces? I seem to remeber that in the "composing on a train" scene in "The World of Duke Ellington" that Ellington might vocalize and edit music that Strayhorn would actually write. Don't have the book with me at the moment, though. --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Hajdu's "Lush Life" is good on Strayhorn the person, but on the music Van de Leur's "The Music of Billy Strayhorn" is essential. He goes into it deeply and authoritatively (especially when it comes to Ellington vs. Strayhorn attribution -- Hajdu isn't reliable here). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 W, I agree with Larry one hundred percent here. Van De Leur's book is a painstakingly researched labor of love, and very revealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAL Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 THE Strayhorn CD to get . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Anyone else read the David Hajdu biography of BS, Lush Life? A good one, I thought. ← I've definitely read it. I've even read a screenplay adapted from the biography, which would make a very interesting movie and probably will never be made. Strays was an amazing individual! ← Just finished the Hajdu bio recently, and it's a very good book. I could even imagine that folks with only a casual interest in jazz could enjoy this book, as Strayhorn was an interesting cat even apart from his great contribution to Ellingtonia and therefore to jazz and to American music. Strayhorn was a hero both in his art and in his life. Hey jazzbo, who wrote that script? I'd be curious to read it. I could see Don Cheadle playing Strays. Who would be a good Ellington among today's actors? Fishburne? Hajdu's "Lush Life" is good on Strayhorn the person, but on the music Van de Leur's "The Music of Billy Strayhorn" is essential. He goes into it deeply and authoritatively (especially when it comes to Ellington vs. Strayhorn attribution -- Hajdu isn't reliable here). ← I've got a copy of that one and will read it soon. I'm not that fmiliar with strayhorn on his own, but it's undeniable that he was the author of some of the triumphant moments of the Ellington Orchestra. He deserved a medal for his settings for Johhny Hodges alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Planet? Interesting concept, that jazz luminaries should have a planet named after them. I'll think that over here on Konitz IV. (Just over from Mobley Prime.) ← Wasn't that from an episode of STRAY Trek? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I think the current idolitry of BS is an error. I think ultimately he was a (usefull) negative in the Ellington world. BS was an interesting "colorist" but a "song writer" which I see as a negative influence. ← I'd be curious to read an expansion of what you mean by "(useful) negative" and "song writer" in this context. Strayhorn could also be faulted, if one wanted to fault him, for being too "classical," as in the arrangements he did for Masterpieces by Ellington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Kalo, I can't remember offhand who wrote that script, and it would take me hours that I don't have right now to find it. . . . If I run across it I'll update you. It was "okay" as far as scripts go, and I've been told that scrits change so much from start to finish it's hard to say what the movie might be like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Hajdu's "Lush Life" is good on Strayhorn the person, but on the music Van de Leur's "The Music of Billy Strayhorn" is essential. He goes into it deeply and authoritatively (especially when it comes to Ellington vs. Strayhorn attribution -- Hajdu isn't reliable here). Been reading the van de Leur while working on a future Afterglow show about Strayhorn & wanted to second Larry's recommendation here for those who are interested in his music. Very in-depth analysis & useful in particular for refuting the "DE & BS couldn't tell their work apart" narrative that's taken hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alocispepraluger102 Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 this vinyl has been a fav of mine for more years than i can remember, and i treasure it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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