Kamasi Washington: NYT Magazine profile

[JSngry]

I'm more than completely OK with Kamas I because I am so completely irrelevant to anything having to do with any of it except at the level of interested bystander. I'm talking about "audience" here, much more than music. I can't begin to tell you how good that feels.

100% serious about this.

[Hot Ptah]

Excellent questions ep1strOphy. My personal theory is that jazz artists of great merit have received so little publicity, so little money, so little genuine, thoughtful critical acclaim, and so few gigs, for so long, that whenever someone else receives any of the above, the jazz artists of great merit explode with frustration, in a fury of negativity. I can easily understand how they would feel that way, and react that way.

i think that unless a 22'year old emerges full blown as if from the forehead of Zeus, fully developed on an artistic level of John Coltrane at the time of "A Love Supreme", the jazz community will be negative at this point. Having wandered in the desert for 40 years, only the promised land will suffice.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Hot Ptah

[JSngry]

And about the music...it's "just like" 70-s spiritual jazz the same way that Neo-Soul is/was "just like" the older Soul, which is to say, not really all that much, depending on how you're dialog-ing with the music...older/whiter people and youngrr/blacker people not necessarily hearing the same "things" in the same things, just sayin'...

One of the most depressing thoughts I've ever had about the post Young LLion jazz was that maybe this really IS what it's like to be a younger black jazz musician today, that in order to havea decent life you really did have to go to that classical/repertoire place and stay there. That relevancy to the Iimmediate "now" was something that happened away from the music's infrastructure, not from within it, that the jazz establishment was always going to mstter.

Well, we have seen what the jazz establishment has been wanting, and why they have been wanting it. At least for the time being, this is none of that, and at least for the time being it is continuing to radiate outwards. So yeah, good thing, very good thing.

Otoh... Charles Lloyd. 

Otooh, James Newton. We might pay attention when people go back "local"...everywhere is local now.

[Hot Ptah]

Excellent points Jim. I am not sure what you meant by your references to Charles Lloyd and James Newton.  I had thought about the 1960s popular Charles Lloyd in relation to Kamasi. Both were/are popular and connected with young audiences in an unexpectedly successful way, while playing music that is "really jazz", if not the heaviest jazz of all time. Both were/are not the best soloists in their group. I am not referring to the Charles Lloyd of recent years now.

i am not sure that I understand your reference to James Newton. From "Paseo Del Mar" on the India Navjgation label on, I think Newton was at a higher level of serious artistry, and much less popular, than Kamasi. I must be missing your point.

[A Lark Ascending]

7 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

I liked my gateway music, and still listen to it sometimes. I think it has real value.

I had a similar entry point to you but from a more British slant (we share McLaughlin but after that it was more Soft Machine, King Crimson (the Ogun chaps on board) and what is termed the Canterbury bands). 

However, there was a period of about 3 to 4 years when I listened to that music (alongside other rock) without having any desire to listen to jazz. It was when that music started to lose its impetus as part of the wider stylistic changes of around 1976 + (and I suspect the changes there were more pronounced over here) that I had to look for something else to listen to - jazz, classical, later folk. Maybe if tricksy instrumental rock had developed and blossomed after the mid-70s I'd have never have walked through the 'gateway'.

What happens to Washington and his current audience remains to be seen - it would need to be a wider movement with lots more performers over a period of time to be comparable with the 70s. Some may well follow up the jazz references in his music. But I doubt if most will.

I have a good friend who had similar tastes in the 70s to myself and who (like myself) still listens to that music with enthusiasm. But he never passed through the gateway to jazz. He occasionally comes to gigs with me but it tends to be those with a more jazz-rock/fusion side to them. 

We do tend to treat jazz as somewhere you end up if you follow the true path. Yet almost everyone I know sees it (and my classical and folk enthusiasms) as an eccentricity, even an affectation. Despite spending 40 years listening to the stuff and amassing a ludicrously sized collection I don't think I've ever converted anyone. 

 

[Hot Ptah]

28 minutes ago, A Lark Ascending said:

I had a similar entry point to you but from a more British slant (we share McLaughlin but after that it was more Soft Machine, King Crimson (the Ogun chaps on board) and what is termed the Canterbury bands). 

However, there was a period of about 3 to 4 years when I listened to that music (alongside other rock) without having any desire to listen to jazz. It was when that music started to lose its impetus as part of the wider stylistic changes of around 1976 + (and I suspect the changes there were more pronounced over here) that I had to look for something else to listen to - jazz, classical, later folk. Maybe if tricksy instrumental rock had developed and blossomed after the mid-70s I'd have never have walked through the 'gateway'.

What happens to Washington and his current audience remains to be seen - it would need to be a wider movement with lots more performers over a period of time to be comparable with the 70s. Some may well follow up the jazz references in his music. But I doubt if most will.

I have a good friend who had similar tastes in the 70s to myself and who (like myself) still listens to that music with enthusiasm. But he never passed through the gateway to jazz. He occasionally comes to gigs with me but it tends to be those with a more jazz-rock/fusion side to them. 

We do tend to treat jazz as somewhere you end up if you follow the true path. Yet almost everyone I know sees it (and my classical and folk enthusiasms) as an eccentricity, even an affectation. Despite spending 40 years listening to the stuff and amassing a ludicrously sized collection I don't think I've ever converted anyone. 

 

I think that conversion is unlikely  People will find the music themselves, however they get to it.

i love the phrase "ludicrously sized collection." When I was 14 my great desire in life was to own a ludicrously sized collection of music. I did it. How many can say that they fulfilled their dream?

[A Lark Ascending]

11 minutes ago, Hot Ptah said:

I think that conversion is unlikely  People will find the music themselves, however they get to it.

i love the phrase "ludicrously sized collection." When I was 14 my great desire in life was to own a ludicrously sized collection of music. I did it. How many can say that they fulfilled their dream?

Everyone hates proselytisers (well maybe not everyone). There's something about 'you should be listening/reading/watching this, not that' that is almost a threat to ones own sense of identity. 

Which is different from reading/hearing/watching someone just enthusing without trying to convert you or foist their enthusiasm on you. I'm regularly drawn in by enthusiasts for musics outside my area of interest who can communicate their love without seeming to claim that they have seen the True Light. 

As for the record collection dream, I can still recall hearing about John Peel's legendary record collection in the early 70s and thinking how wonderful it would be to have something like that. I now seem to have it (well, not close to Peel's archive, but...). And it is wonderful.   

[medjuck]

I think a lot of this discussion can be summed up as "Hey you kids stop playing on my lawn."   And I've never even heard The Epic, so I'm completely objective. 

[A Lark Ascending]

It seems to me to be more of a 'Look at those kids playing on that bit of ground over there....the game looks a bit like one we used to play but they seem to be making their own rules. Good on 'em. But I think I'll go back into the living room and play space invaders' 

Edited January 26, 2016 by A Lark Ascending

[Hot Ptah]

I think the discussion is "here's a kid playing around with something we care deeply about and we either do or do not approve of what he is doing with our sacred art form. We are either all right with him doing what he is doing or we find it lacking. We are either offended or gratified by the fact that the kid is very popular and getting media attention and sales out of his playing around with what we hold so dear."

 

[JSngry]

For me, it's one of those 'it's about time you kids got a life of your own" type things.

[AllenLowe]

Jim is right; it's not playing on the lawn or suspicion of success; it's really not fair to place our critical motivations in such a jealous light; the music is stuck, as Jim said (and I said earlier) in a time warp that is strangely un-self aware. I realize that no one here intends to be personal, but it's really unjust to question the motivation of musicians who think Kamasai's stuff is just stuff and not a lot more, musically speaking. I judge it based on certain personal and critical standards; if jealousy of others' professional success were my criteria for criticism, there would not be enough time in the day. I can give you a list of contemporary musicians, many quite successful, and all more successful than me, whom I have praised and whom I support, in personal - and financial - ways.

Edited January 26, 2016 by AllenLowe

[Hot Ptah]

I have been thinking some more about this. If Chico Freeman's low key album of standards on the India Navigation label, "Spirit Sensitive", released in 1979, had resulted in massive commercial popularity for him in 1979, with platinum level record sales, sold out appearances in large rock venues, favorable articles in mainstream media,  listings in the Best of All Albums in All Genres for 1979, and much favorable attention among young listeners, that would have been comparable to what has happened with "The Epic." In both cases, there is a young saxophonist who has put out a pleasant, all right, but not all-time great, album.

What would the reaction have been in 1979 if Chico Freeman had enjoyed that great fortune after releasing "Spirit Sensitive"? Would jazz musicians and critics have been glad for him, rejoiced in his inexplicable great fortune, commented on how he is an up and coming musician with hopefully better things to come? Or would have the jazz world been negative about him and his album, pointing out his limitations as a saxophonist and expressing the view that his album was not that great? Or would there have been some of both?

I am just using Chico Freeman and "Sprit Sensitive" as an arbitrary example of what I am thinking about. For this hypothetical, one could plug in any other young saxophonist who had released a pleasant, accessible album at any time.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Hot Ptah

[jazzbo]

Go forward a half dozen years, and ask similar questions about the "young lions," Wynton et al. . . . We can see the answers to some of these.

I'm happy to see this album get the exposure and attention it has. And I like the album. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by jazzbo

[jlhoots]

I just think it's strange that this thread has 39 replies (already) & the Vijay Iyer thread has one (mine).

[Hot Ptah]

31 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

I just think it's strange that this thread has 39 replies (already) & the Vijay Iyer thread has one (mine).

Yes, I noticed that too. There is something about Kamasi Washington and "The Epic" that generates emotion, whereas Vijay Iyer does not.

50 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Go forward a half dozen years, and ask similar questions about the "young lions," Wynton et al. . . . We can see the answers to some of these.

I'm happy to see this album get the exposure and attention it has. And I like the album.

 

I was trying to avoid comparisons to Wynton and the emergence of the young jazz revivalists, as that was a planned, ideological agenda for jazz.

I think that "The Epic" and Kamasi Washington are not part of any planned agenda. I used Chico Freeman's "Spirit Sensitive" as a comparison because like "The Epic", it was just another album. What if it had caught fire commercially as "The Epic" has?

I also wonder why Kamasi Washington has generated animosity, when to my knowledge, he is not an offensive or polarizing personality. If he was an arrogant know-it-all, I could see why he would rub people the wrong way, but to my knowledge, he has never said a disrespectful word.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Hot Ptah

[jazzbo]

I get that. But there's been a planned use of jazz inclusion in other albums Kasami and others have appeared on that certainly may not be the same "planned agenda" but may be a bit similar. . . . 

Despite Allen's lack of jealousy (which I believe I guess) I do think there's some jealousy in some reactions (not saying here) to this release. I think I'll pull it out of the shelves and put it into the listening pile again, I like it.

[A Lark Ascending]

It's funny how a brief period of mainstream success can sustain a jazz career. Andy Sheppard, a British sax player, had a brief period of success beyond the jazz world in the 80s. Nothing comparable since though he has continued to tour widely and make albums. The two main venues that I go to jazz concerts in rarely sell out - but Sheppard sold out in Sheffield at the end of last year; and when I booked a ticket to see him in Nottingham in March it was all ready 2/3rds sold.

So if Mr. Washington doesn't prove to be the next big thing in jazz, he'll probably be able to make a living.

Anyway, I thought Robert Glasper was meant to be the next big thing in jazz.   

[AllenLowe]

I'm guessing that I am telling the truth.

and criticism isn't animosity, it's criticism. Please. Discern the difference. Do you guys hate Miley Cyrus? Or do you just think the music sucks? It is interesting how we often question the motives of those with whom we disagree. I have no agendas or vested interests.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by AllenLowe

[jazzbo]

I don't hate Miley and I think some of the music is okay. I'm not an "us or them" sort of person.

[AllenLowe]

I guess the question is, at what level of success do I become jealous? At Gary Bartz's? Ken Peplowski's? Ursula Oppens'? Matt Shipp's? Hamiet Bluiett's? Nels Cline's? (All musicians I will have recorded with - or released recordings with- in the last year).

Just making my point and defending myself. 2 of the above have made 'pop' recordings, so I, too, am not a 'them or us' guy.

Edited January 26, 2016 by AllenLowe

[jazzbo]

I don't know, you'll have to tell me, I wasn't assuming you were necessarily jealous. 

[AllenLowe]

well, your belief was somewhat....qualified.

[jazzbo]

I'm a minister's son. All my beliefs are somewhat qualified.

[BFrank]

Where does Esperanza Spalding fall in this conversation? She's become a popular artist who has crossed more than a few musical boundaries, yet is still a talented jazz bassist (or was a couple of years ago when I saw her with Joe Lovano and Jack DeJohnette).