Wooley thread gone again

[JSngry]

True, but if I send the cat a $20 bill, he gets more from me than he does if I buy the CD. Any of 'em!

"Cash", it's MusicianSpanish for "Love".

[jlhoots]

I'm somewhat amused as to the comment that this is a commercial move on the part of Wooley.

So - Clean Feed will sell 600 copies i.o. 500? Woo-hoo. (BTW, I'm just making up numbers. I really have no idea re: the number that will be sold.)

[JSngry]

"Commercial" is not a dirty word, nor is it a concept limited to sales. There's the visibility angle, entering a bigger landscape than one currently occupies. Not just a particular record selling, but a particular idea moving outward rather than inward. It can happen in big steps or little ones, all at once or little by little. Either way, it's about de-fringing, to whatever degree available.

That matters, I think.

Now if a few years from now you see Wooley featured at Lincoln Center, you can wonder a big hmmm...but until then, more visibility is not a corrupt concept.

[jlhoots]

Didn't think there was anything "corrupt" about Wooley.

I like the CD (some money where my mouth is) & his playing.

[JSngry]

No, nothing corrupt. Calculating, yes, I'd have to think, but again,that's strategy, and god knows you need a strategy to get out of the ghetto these days. You always have.

Or, more like it, a counter strategy to the strategy that enables the creation and sustainment of the ghetto.

[MomsMobley]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

"Commercial" is not a dirty word, nor is it a concept limited to sales. There's the visibility angle, entering a bigger landscape than one currently occupies. Not just a particular record selling, but a particular idea moving outward rather than inward. It can happen in big steps or little ones, all at once or little by little. Either way, it's about de-fringing, to whatever degree available.

That matters, I think.

Now if a few years from now you see Wooley featured at Lincoln Center, you can wonder a big hmmm...but until then, more visibility is not a corrupt concept.

Correct. And whether Wooley is cynical &/or naive &/or hapless, there's ZERO musical reason for those tunes to be revisited. They didn't bear scrutiny the first time around and they sure ("as shit") haven't aged well. If Wooley is trying to teach his core audience an object lesson in "tolerance," he's nothing but a dupe. If he wanted to revive the style, might as well have gone back to contemporary ersatz Miles', pick a popular (-ish) late '60s Donald Byrd side, say, including one (or more!) with Sonny Red. If he wants to assay and revive the (black) early '80s, why not tackle the Anthony Davis songbook? You wanna pay tribute to a trumpeter, I don't see Baikida Carroll being overpraised. Hell, how about Nate Wooley versus, say, Blue Mitchell "Bantu Village"? Let Monk Higgins people go!

xxx

 

 

 

 

[JSngry]

Wow, Monk Higgins, I'm gonna have to see and call, not gonna raise on a Monk Higgins. 

[Steve Reynolds]

Door of the Cage, baby

[Scott Dolan]

Or perhaps, and possibly a really, really big perhaps, Wooley simply wanted to play this music. 

People needing to attach all kinds of nefarious reasons to it says more about them then it does him. 

[Joe]

I sort of look at this album the same way I look at Gertrude Stein's "book for children" (THE WORLD IS ROUND). I mean, Wooley's "game" here appeals to me as very syntactical, with all that terms implies and entails. Like, OK, let's REALLY go back to first principles -- something the Young Lions advocated, a "return" to the essentials of the music -- and see what happens when we start to experiment at that level. A) Like impulses can produce very unlike results; B) Let's entertain the possibility that, latent in these compositions is a musical direction that WM and the YL et al. could have taken but did not. But the seeds of their aesthetic's own undoing (or full flowering, take your pick) are lying dormant in the aesthetic particulars themselves.

Counterfactual history, perhaps. And, given where Wooley is positioned generationally, it makes perfect sense to me. Isn't there a bit of counterfactual history at work in the music of Albert Ayler, Gil Evans, Mingus?

Edited December 11, 2015 by Joe

[Quasimado]

Larry, can we have your expertise, again (and again) ... Q

[David Ayers]

I am taking the possibly radical approach of listening to this album. 

 

 

 

 

Wish me luck.

[jlhoots]

31 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

I am taking the possibly radical approach of listening to this album. 

 

 

 

 

Wish me luck.

There you go. What a concept. Actually listen to the music (& read the musician's own thoughts)!!

[dtaylor]

All of these ascriptions to Wooley's motives are pretty interesting, if mostly off-base. He clearly and concisely covers his reasons for the project in the liners to the album. I don't have it at hand or I would transcribe them here, but basically he grew up on Wynton's music as an adolescent in Oregon and eventually parted ways with it for many of the reasons hashed over in this thread and the previous ones. I think Joe's comment above comes closest to any deeper rationale behind the disc. Wooley also acknowledges the potential political ramifications of his choice of subject and takes pains to distance himself from any sort of irony or polemic. As to why he didn't choose Bradford, or Carter, or Mitchell, or any of the other "far more deserving composers" out there, it's as simple as the desire to revisit a body of work that meant a lot to him in his youth with different adult sensibilities & a crew of trusted colleagues to see what would come of it. So much of this head-scratching and motive-ascribing could be avoided by asking the artist in question what their intentions actually are/were (Wooley's easy to find & contact on the web & a really friendly & genuine guy to boot). It's an easy trap to fall into though, I'll admit.

[MomsMobley]

1 hour ago, dtaylor said:

All of these ascriptions to Wooley's motives are pretty interesting, if mostly off-base. He clearly and concisely covers his reasons for the project in the liners to the album. I don't have it at hand or I would transcribe them here, but basically he grew up on Wynton's music as an adolescent in Oregon and eventually parted ways with it for many of the reasons hashed over in this thread and the previous ones. I think Joe's comment above comes closest to any deeper rationale behind the disc. Wooley also acknowledges the potential political ramifications of his choice of subject and takes pains to distance himself from any sort of irony or polemic. As to why he didn't choose Bradford, or Carter, or Mitchell, or any of the other "far more deserving composers" out there, it's as simple as the desire to revisit a body of work that meant a lot to him in his youth with different adult sensibilities & a crew of trusted colleagues to see what would come of it. So much of this head-scratching and motive-ascribing could be avoided by asking the artist in question what their intentions actually are/were (Wooley's easy to find & contact on the web & a really friendly & genuine guy to boot). It's an easy trap to fall into though, I'll admit.

D, I don't think it's in this iteration of Wooley / Marsalis but let's call it 'sincere but jive nostalgia' has been mooted as a possible motivation. Unless one is Proust (and even there it's arguable) nostalgia is a lousy artistic impulse. Let's examine why he would be nostalgic for this music, specifically THESE tunes, which most people with an interest in the complete game don't rate highly as composition per se. (I think the bands are bullshit too but that's yet another issue.)

So here's Wooley in 2015, going back to his largely white, Corporate Media Mediated Youth.... Columbia deigned it was Important then, a largely but not entirely pliant / complacent advertising driven media echoed it... and now it's echoed yet again?

There are probably people-- including perhaps Wooley-- who grew up in an when vomit like Kiss, Styx, REO Speedwagon etc (I can't bear to type any more) were popular and 'in the air'. And even if a stupid doopid kid enjoyed such (I didn't but esp. with Kiss there are adults who won't let go of their footsy pajama memories), it should be goddamn liberation to see the wide wide worlds beyond that which one was plopped into.

Based on his past work, I might have credited Wooley for playing possum (if not George Jones himself) for the no irony or polemic line. But please, this project is INHERENTLY polemical and if he (a white man of relative cultural / historical privilege) truly doesn't understand that, then there are intellectual failings there that leads to PRECISELY where we're at, the sham resort of Destination Marsalis.

Happily, Sun Ra Rocket #9 remains to take us onward.

And not all corporate rock was bad either, and surely nothing in even Wooley's best previous work comes close to matching the invention, originality, poetry or funk of Beefheart Sun Zoom Spark--

Maybe if Wooley's Marsalis tribute band had included electric guitar, harmonica, perhaps (back on the bop side) a hot bongo / percussion player too in the Montego Joe role? But nope, shit's just as dead as it was "originally." Ah, the sweet nostalgia of youth!

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by MomsMobley

[clifford_thornton]

18 hours ago, MomsMobley said:

Why not, if Wooley's songbook was light or he wanted a challenge, pay homage to Bobby Bradford, the composer & the trumpeter?

Side Q: when has Wynton / Jazz at Lincoln Center done their tribute to John Carter? Or was he not black, virtuosic, intellectual, or composition enough for their "curatorial" blah-blah?

 

Wooley and Vandermark (another of your faves, yuk yuk) have a duo project that does just that. It's really nice in my opinion.

[relyles]

47 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Wooley and Vandermark (another of your faves, yuk yuk) have a duo project that does just that. It's really nice in my opinion.

I was getting ready to mention the same thing. Heard the duo when they came through Hartford two years ago and enjoyed it very much.

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, Quasimado said:

Larry, can we have your expertise, again (and again) ... Q

Perhaps apropos to some of all this: 

My 15-year-old stepson, a member of his high school marching band, has begun taking classical alto sax lessons from a private teacher, who at his last lesson gave him the melody of Coltrane’s “Impressions” to practice and play. My wife then asked me to dredge up an actual recording of “Impressions" for my stepson to listen to — that, the iconic one, would be from “Coltrane at the Village Vanguard” — and when I played it myself yesterday afternoon for the first time in some time I felt a surge of emotion (in part remembering all the times I heard Coltrane live and what a blessing it was to have had that experience when so many people, given Coltrane's passing in 1967, would never have that experience -- and believe me Coltrane live was not the same experience as Coltrane on record, any record, studio or live; the actual dynamic levels for one thing of, say, Coltrane at McKie's Disc Jockey Show Lounge at 63rd and Cottage Grove, playing on the other side of the room's narrow bar, are/were in my experience beyond accurate reproduction). In any case, feeling what I felt after listening to "Impressions,"  a semi-remembered quote lingered in my head, one that however I couldn’t track down. Today I did. It’s from Wordsworth’s “The Prelude,” and there refers to his memories of the impact the French Revolution had on him:

 

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive

But to be young was very heaven!--Oh! times,

In which the meagre, stale, forbidding ways

Of custom, law, and statute, took at once

The attraction of a country in romance!

 

 

2 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Perhaps apropos to some of all this: 

My 15-year-old stepson, a member of his high school marching band, has begun taking classical alto sax lessons from a private teacher, who at his last lesson gave him the melody of Coltrane’s “Impressions” to practice and play. My wife then asked me to dredge up an actual recording of “Impressions" for my stepson to listen to — that, the iconic one, would be from “Coltrane at the Village Vanguard” — and when I played it myself yesterday afternoon for the first time in some time I felt a surge of emotion (in part remembering all the times I heard Coltrane live and what a blessing it was to have had that experience when so many people, given Coltrane's passing in 1967, would never have that experience -- and believe me Coltrane live was not the same experience as Coltrane on record, any record, studio or live; the actual dynamic levels for one thing of, say, Coltrane at McKie's Disc Jockey Show Lounge at 63rd and Cottage Grove, playing on the other side of the room's narrow bar, are/were in my experience beyond accurate reproduction, almost in the event beyond audition). In any case, feeling what I felt after listening to "Impressions,"  a semi-remembered quote lingered in my head, one that however I couldn’t track down. Today I did. It’s from Wordsworth’s “The Prelude,” and there refers to his memories of the impact the French Revolution had on him:

 

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive

But to be young was very heaven!--Oh! times,

In which the meagre, stale, forbidding ways

Of custom, law, and statute, took at once

The attraction of a country in romance!

 

 

See, BTW, here's that unwanted quote thing happening again. Won't try touch it this time though or the whole thread almost certainly will go poof. In any case, the quoted passage above does make some sense to me.

[jlhoots]

Upthread a bit (Moms) - yeah we all love Sun Ra & Capt. Beefheart too. However, IMHO you're really pushing to make your point in this thread in a mostly ineffective way.

[MomsMobley]

If, by whatever circumstances that was Wooley's taste as a teenager... And that's STILL Wooley's taste in jazz composition then, FULL STOP-- he has execrable taste; an awful sense of history-- intellectually or emotionally-- and his politics are either hopelessly naive or incredibly cynical. It's "cute" his "extended technique" has engendered such good will among some but for others, it now calls into question the value of his previous work.

Funny too how nobody with a wide-ranging interest in jazz and related musics of the 1950s-1980s is stepping forward to say yes, goddamn it, yes! these Marsalis compositions deserve recognition, resurrection and-- though Wynton himself sits in THEE Catbird Seat-- yet wider exposure.

But hey Columbia AND the Grammy's gave their approbation then, Jazz at Lincoln Center followed and here's Nate Wooley offering further approbation now: so reductionism and multiplicity echoes across time.

***

Note: I can't find the 'quote' baloon so am offsetting this otherwise; pace Sun Ra: on what planet-- in what omniverse-- is this is legitimate response or explanation? From Clean Feed Records description... So not just trite adolescent nostalgia but a willfull denial of all other contexts the adult can't possibly be ig'nant of. Paying tribute to Marsalis might have fulfilled some version of Wooley's teenage dream but thankfully others are saving their approbation and $$$ for those who heard / interpret things differently.

 

***

"Defying boundaries, those which state that there is a corner represented by Wynton Marsalis and an opposite corner in which Nate Wooley has marked his own name, the Nate Wooley Quintet presents us with an unexpected CD of the leader's own versions of Marsalis's music. 

Unexpected for some, but not for Wooley: after all, the American trumpeter became interested in jazz because of the Wynton Marsalis recordings he heard while forging his first steps in music. Without any aesthetic, political, or ironic baggage, Nate Wooley just felt that it was time to show why he loves albums like "Black Codes", "J Mood" and "Wynton Marsalis", while translating it to his unique style. 

His concept is clear from the liner notes to this recording, while the passion and joy in this music is clear from the recording itself. The leader here is at a point in which he senses that jazz - more than experimental and free improvised music - is once again bringing him "to new and increasingly intellectual paths". The results are astonishing, in what we hear and in what "(Dance to) the Early Music" represents, making us expect much more in the future of this personal rediscovery."-Clean Feed

***

 

Side Q: How many times c. early-mid 1980s was Horace Tapscott mentioned in jazz or general interest publications in the years that young Wooley and numerous others were listening to and sometimes reading about Wynton Marsalis?

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by MomsMobley

[jlhoots]

I still think you should read Wooley's notes, not the Clean Feed blurb.

 

[JSngry]

Reading Wooley's bio on his website, it appears that he came to New York at age 27(?) already more or less fully developed technically. Before then, was he staying in Oregon, and if so, doing what? Was he around Rob Blakeslee in Portland any?

This is apropos of nothing in particular, just wondering how his trumpet techniques was refined to the point it was. It's definitely studied and practiced in the sense of being so well-honed. Just wondering what circles he was in to developed it to the point that he did before appearing in NYC.

[uli]

On 12/8/2015, 6:45:07, Larry Kart said:

17 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Reading Wooley's bio on his website, it appears that he came to New York at age 27(?) already more or less fully developed technically. Before then, was he staying in Oregon, and if so, doing what? Was he around Rob Blakeslee in Portland any?

This is apropos of nothing in particular, just wondering how his trumpet techniques was refined to the point it was. It's definitely studied and practiced in the sense of being so well-honed. Just wondering what circles he was in to developed it to the point that he did before appearing in NYC.

Damn it -- I did it again, deleted the whole new Wooley thread. And this time I know what happened. I was adding a post, and it quoted my previous post, which I didn't want to do. I couldn't get rid of the quoted passage, so I painted it and hit delete -- and the whole thread disappeared!

here is an interview from 2009 which gets a bit into his pre new york history

http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine/interviews/wooley.html

Edited December 11, 2015 by uli

[JSngry]

Ah, Colorado, Ron Miles, and Jack Wright, there you go.

[mjazzg]

1 hour ago, MomsMobley said:

If, by whatever circumstances that was Wooley's taste as a teenager... And that's STILL Wooley's taste in jazz composition then, FULL STOP-- he has execrable taste; an awful sense of history-- intellectually or emotionally-- and his politics are either hopelessly naive or incredibly cynical. It's "cute" his "extended technique" has engendered such good will among some but for others, it now calls into question the value of his previous work.

 

You find it so easy to make personal attacks based on little or no evidence don't you? It's so brave hiding behind your barn. The posting of endless youtube clips doesn't add anything to the discussion nor does it hide your very obvious ego-laden motivations for posting.

I know the desired response of the provocateur is to get a response like this so pat yourself on the back and smile self-satisfyingly but frankly it's time you're called out on this behaviour

1 hour ago, jlhoots said:

I still think you should read Wooley's notes, not the Clean Feed blurb.

as would anyone who was serious about engaging in fruitful debate