Vocalese: Does it please?

[GA Russell]

1)  I think that the art form owes its popularity to Jon Hendricks.

2)  For a long while (the '70s and '80s), it seemed like Mark Murphy was the only person doing it.

[fasstrack]

10 hours ago, Teasing said:

I find vocalese lyrics in the aggregate more interesting than 95% or so of "serious" English language lyrics written in the past 100 years or so. 

Several of those singers were members of the Dave Lambert singers at one time or another, so Dave Lambert might have a more nuanced response to your post, were he alive to respond. 

Interesting.

[Teasing the Korean]

31 minutes ago, fasstrack said:

Interesting.

I should expand on my opinion on vocalese lyrics.  I was exaggerating in my previous post, but what is so interesting about vocalese lyrics is the the shapes and lengths of the improvised lines force the lyricist into directions that they typically would not explore if, say, writing the lyric to a standard 32-bar pop tune.  The result is almost a missing link between jazz and psychedelia. 

[mjzee]

19 minutes ago, Teasing said:

I should expand on my opinion on vocalese lyrics.  I was exaggerating in my previous post, but what is so interesting about vocalese lyrics is the the shapes and lengths of the improvised lines force the lyricist into directions that they typically would not explore if, say, writing the lyric to a standard 32-bar pop tune.  The result is almost a missing link between jazz and psychedelia. 

I totally agree.  The challenge is huge.  What I hear in that King Pleasure link I posted earlier: He must be true to the original song lyric, must also be true to the emotion conveyed by the melody, and must match his lyrics and delivery to the solo he's "playing" on.  And for so little monetary payoff!  It's almost like a monastic calling.

There's a little more lyrical freedom when the original is an instrumental.  I'm thinking of Annie Ross's take on Farmer's Market.  She nods to the title by spinning some yarn about beans.

[Teasing the Korean]

6 minutes ago, mjzee said:

...And for so little monetary payoff!  It's almost like a monastic calling...

Ha ha!  You're right!  

[mikeweil]

On 8.11.2015, 03:14:54, AllenLowe said:

just to note, though it doesn't seem to be mentioned as much as the other, the LHR Sing a Song Basie on Roulette is WAY better than their other Basie record (ABC Paramount? Not sure). It's the most perfect melding of solos/lyrics I have heard, the hippest stuff in this arena, I do believe.

That's because it's just four singers - LHR plus Joe Williams, who fits in magnificently - no way a choir could swing that way. I, too, like that one better than the ABC overdub LP. On the latter Hendricks wanted to recreate every trumpet, trombone, and sax part.

[Teasing the Korean]

49 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

...no way a choir could swing that way...

New York group singers circa 1958 were not "choir" singers.  They could sound like a choir if that is what the job requested, but choir singers could not sing like professional New York group singers. 

[fasstrack]

This weekend I heard an example of the very thing I was grousing about: pedestrian afterthought lyrics to a jazz standard. The tune was Freddie Green's Corner Pocket, and (sorry to say) the singer the great Tony Bennett. He made nondescript lyrics more palatable, at least. 

[mjzee]

Just noticed this recent release while browsing on Amazon.  Looks interesting:

[BillF]

2 hours ago, mjzee said:

Just noticed this recent release while browsing on Amazon.  Looks interesting:

I dig it! Just found it on Spotify and was won over from the first track. Gigi Gryce's "Wildwood" sounds great in this format!

Edited November 16, 2015 by BillF

[BillF]

Couple of recommendations from me:

Edited November 16, 2015 by BillF

[fasstrack]

53 minutes ago, BillF said:

Couple of recommendations from me:

The Hi-Los became the Singers Unlimited in the '70s. Phenomenal group led by the Hi-Los' vocal arranger, Gene Puerling. What a giant of a talent.

[duaneiac]

2 hours ago, mjzee said:

Just noticed this recent release while browsing on Amazon.  Looks interesting:

I should be part of the natural audience for this CD, but I have shied away from it mainly because I know Annie Ross and Jon Hendricks are well past their prime and it would be painful to hear them sing today.  I don't know how many tracks they appear on on this CD, but for me, it's best to remember them as they were.  Sheila Jordan, Bob Dorough and Mark Murphy are all acquired tastes, but I like each of them, even the sound of their voices in their later years.

I saw this CD in a store (yes, an actual CD store!) and it was filed uned "London Meader" as if that were a person's name.

[BillF]

20 minutes ago, duaneiac said:

I should be part of the natural audience for this CD, but I have shied away from it mainly because I know Annie Ross and Jon Hendricks are well past their prime and it would be painful to hear them sing today.  I don't know how many tracks they appear on on this CD, but for me, it's best to remember them as they were.  Sheila Jordan, Bob Dorough and Mark Murphy are all acquired tastes, but I like each of them, even the sound of their voices in their later years.

I saw this CD in a store (yes, an actual CD store!) and it was filed uned "London Meader" as if that were a person's name.

Didn't notice Mjzee's description of this as a recent release and thought I was listening to something made fifty years ago. So much for deterioration of the stars' voices! (Sheila Jordan the exception.)

[JSngry]

4 hours ago, fasstrack said:

This weekend I heard an example of the very thing I was grousing about: pedestrian afterthought lyrics to a jazz standard. The tune was Freddie Green's Corner Pocket, and (sorry to say) the singer the great Tony Bennett. He made nondescript lyrics more palatable, at least. 

Did he sing the vocalese too, or just the lyrics to the song itself?

I really don't care for Manhattan Transfer, and they did a version of this same song that I also don't really care for, but in spite of all that, whichever one of thems it was, the vocalese on the Thad Jones & Frank Wess solos weas very well done. Would that the rest of the tune has been like that.

[fasstrack]

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Did he sing the vocalese too, or just the lyrics to the song itself?

I really don't care for Manhattan Transfer, and they did a version of this same song that I also don't really care for, but in spite of all that, whichever one of thems it was, the vocalese on the Thad Jones & Frank Wess solos weas very well done. Would that the rest of the tune has been like that.

Just the lyrics to the song---and it's a nice record but the lyrics seemed a bit below all the great tunes he sang. Just my opinion.

[JSngry]

Most lyrics really aren't very good once you take them out of the song. I guess that's why they're song lyrics.

[mikeweil]

Don't forget Georgie Fame, who was vocalese ambassador and Hendricks/Jordan/Pleasure follower in Great Britain. I just talked my wife into getting me the new Fame box set with his first four albums for Xmas, which includes a lot of vocalese tracks:

Edited November 16, 2015 by mikeweil

[GA Russell]

Thanks for the tip, Mike! 

I see that that box is much less expensive on amazon.uk than on amazon.com  Have you found the cheapest price on the net?

[fasstrack]

19 hours ago, JSngry said:

Most lyrics really aren't very good once you take them out of the song. I guess that's why they're song lyrics.

Afterthoughts, no matter how well intended, don't make it IMO. The great ASB songs are great because the melodist/lyricist created them from the ground up. Vocalese is another animal altogether. What I most admire about it is the technique involved in pulling it off. What I least like is the corny tales of derring do attributed to the musicians playing the original solos.

But I'm repeating myself..... 

[JSngry]

Ah, most lyrics...if you tried to have an intelligent conversation strictly in song lyrics, you would be trying harder to have an intelligent conversation that you needed to.

A great lyric is a great lyric, but by definition, a lyric is part of a song. Stripped of the song, you seldom have "great" anything, except a lyric that needs to be put back into the song.

[fasstrack]

28 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Ah, most lyrics...if you tried to have an intelligent conversation strictly in song lyrics, you would be trying harder to have an intelligent conversation that you needed to.

A great lyric is a great lyric, but by definition, a lyric is part of a song. Stripped of the song, you seldom have "great" anything, except a lyric that needs to be put back into the song.

As an aside, Stephen Sondheim made the observation that poets, whom you'd think would make great lyricists, don't. What reads well, it seems, doesn't necessarily sing well.

[JSngry]

I tend to agree, at least not in the traditional "Western" pop song format. The needs are different.

[fasstrack]

25 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I tend to agree, at least not in the traditional "Western" pop song format. The needs are different.

Damn. That leaves Willie S. out. Good thing he left his bed to his old lady.........

[duaneiac]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Ah, most lyrics...if you tried to have an intelligent conversation strictly in song lyrics, you would be trying harder to have an intelligent conversation that you needed to.

A great lyric is a great lyric, but by definition, a lyric is part of a song. Stripped of the song, you seldom have "great" anything, except a lyric that needs to be put back into the song.

Well, a lot of lyrics are not conversations, but monologues (internal or otherwise) -- and some great monologues at that:  "It Never Entered My Mind", "My Foolish Heart", "What Are You Doing New Year's Eve?", "Crazy He Calls Me", "Last Night When We Were Young".

Some songs are one-sided conversations:  "Change Partners", "One For My Baby (And One More For The Road)", "For All We Know", "What's New?", "Too Young To Go Steady", "I Thought About You".

Some songs incorporate conversation into their structure, such as "Is That All There Is?" or "I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face" which was written to be as easily spoken as sung since Rex Harrison was no singer.

Great lyrics are great lyrics and some stand quite nicely on their own as poetry -- perhaps not "literary" poetry, but poetry nonetheless..  For example, on the face of it, "My huckleberry friend" has absolutely no meaning, but I think each of us can attach our own meaning to it and that's one goal of poetry.

Edited November 17, 2015 by duaneiac