Vocalese: Does it please?

[fasstrack]

Vocalese being the practice of setting a lyric to an improvised solo (as opposed to scat singing or writing a lyric after the fact to a jazz standard, a practice I often don't enjoy).

I'm trying not to name names here---out of respect for the talents involved, and the great technical prowess sometimes involved in these efforts---but a lot of the end result, well, gets on my nerves. There, I've said it. I guess I find the lyrics silly often, and the use of 'hip' language corny and frankly even embarrassing.

Far be it for me to put a whole art form down and all the work involved, but I'd like to know how people feel.

Edited November 3, 2015 by fasstrack

[Big Beat Steve]

Taken in moderate doses - fine with me.

As for some lyrics attempting to be hip in a contrived way, I tend to see them as a sign of the times and in the context of the times and all of a sudden they usually become quite bearable ...

 

 

 

[A Lark Ascending]

Yes, can be a bit ear-wincing at times but done well and shorn of hipsterisms can be engaging. There are a lot of jazz instrumentals that make good vocal vehicles. 

Here's a little known record of vocalese that I really like:

British by birth, raised in Australia, but has been resident here for a long time. She wrote a fair few of the lyrics herself.

 

• Moanin'
• Watermelon Man
• Autumn Leaves
• Night and Day
• Lonely Woman
• Doodlin'
• The Sidewinder
• Blues on the Corner
• Wonderful, Wonderful
• And What If I Don't

In fact I think I'll play that next! 

Have a listen to this - 'Autumn Leaves'. I love it:

 

Edited November 3, 2015 by A Lark Ascending

[BFrank]

It's like anything else. Some vocalists can do it, others can't. You might as well ask: "Drum solos: Do they please?"

[Shawn]

Generally?  No.  Occasionally I'll here something I'm okay with but I would never get in the mood for this style or feel the need to own any of it.  

 

[Hardbopjazz]

Lambert, Hendricks & Ross I enjoy along with Eddie Jefferson. Would the Swingle Singers fall into vocalese?

[JSngry]

I like songs about legs. Close enough?

There's always the thing with, which did you know first, the vocal or the solo? And usually, once you hear the solo, the vocal is less cool. Not always, though.This one, for me, yeahyeahyeah I get that it's corny, but hell, it's a song about legs and there are no lies told in the process. Problem, officer?

[Big Beat Steve]

Never mind the legs. Moot point.

Anyway, "it ain't the meat, it's the motion ..."

As for what came first and what impresses you more or less, YMMV. I remember my first exposure to this kind of setting vocals to solos came via Manhattan Transfer (what else in those late 70s ... ) but I had heard the actual instrumental recordings and solos before, and I cannot remember that I liked the vocals any less. Except that sometimes they appeared a little gimmicky to me (nothing wrong with that either, you don't always have to take in your jazz in graaaaave earnest and high-brow seriousness - in fact, not often, really ...).

Later on I discovered where MT had come from (and learned to appreciate the "originals" and others in that vein, e.g. Eddie Jefferson).

[JSngry]

Legs meet, not moot.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I like some stuff, can't be bothered with other stuff. Much like everyone else I guess. King Pleasure is very nice and 'Moody's mood for love' is wonderful, as is his 'Red top'. Gloria Lynne has done a couple of nice things - she wrote smashing lyrics to Kenny Burrell's 'All day long'. She recorded it twice; on her first album, 'Miss Gloria Lynne' (Everest), and her penultimate, 'This one's on me' (Highnote).

MG

[fasstrack]

 Yes, King Pleasure, Moody's Mood, Jon Hendricks, and Eddie Jefferson---big ups. I was referring to some of the more modern attempts in my curmudgeonly OP.

[JSngry]

Hendricks came up as a tenor player, so he got it, the phrasing and articulation thing, ghosting notes and all that. And he had a viewpoint with his lyrics, not jut all We All God's Hip Chillun, something that has begrudgingly come to bug me about Eddie Jefferson over the years, and it pains me to see this happening to me, because, you know I used to LOVE me some Eddie Jefferson, those Muse records would come on the radio, UP goes the volume. Same thing with Paper Moon with Dexter, that countdown thing, yeah, that was hip as shit back in the day. But you know, like the folks warned,what is hip today, etc.

But John Hendricks, as lyricist, he had a silly zone that he spent a lot of time in, but that's not because he didn't have any other place to live, ok?

[BillF]

6 hours ago, fasstrack said:

 Yes, King Pleasure, Moody's Mood, Jon Hendricks, and Eddie Jefferson---big ups. I was referring to some of the more modern attempts in my curmudgeonly OP.

Well, it was invented in the bop era and was probably at its best then. Apart from the people you mention, Annie Ross produced some classic examples and I think Mark Murphy was a master of the form, too.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

My analyst told me/That I was right out of my head...but I like Twisted and so did Joni & Bette.  Moody's Mood's ok too, but most of the rest not so much.

[BFrank]

Mark Murphy - absolutely!

[fasstrack]

16 hours ago, BillF said:

Well, it was invented in the bop era and was probably at its best then. Apart from the people you mention, Annie Ross produced some classic examples and I think Mark Murphy was a master of the form, too.

 

Mark Murphy was a master, period.

[Brad]

I'm with Steve on this: small doses is fine but I do like Lambert Hendricks & Ross.  Real talented folks.

[mjzee]

I think King Pleasure was a genius.  This tune captures it all: not just the vocal tracking the original, but also great singing that conveys the emotion of the song.  I'm impressed every time I hear this:

https://youtu.be/nbvpUd7_gjc

[fasstrack]

Maybe it's time to take off the kid gloves and name names. No more Mr. Nice guy.  I think Kurt Elling's a fine singer with good diction and a great technique, but they played something he did on, I think, a Donald Byrd piece. It started with 4-part harmony, and his solo excursion was rife with hipsterisms. Well done, but it drove me nuts.

And Michael Bourne on WBGO played a recording of a guy who put words to Blue Rondo a la Turk. Don't remember if he vocalized the solos. Made my toes curl.

Then there's the issue of the after-the-fact tacking on of lyrics to jazz standards. I.e.: 'Believe in your people, just speak no evil' (not even a rhyme) to Speak no Evil; or 'Gig on the west coast, man on the east coast, etc. (or some such) to West Coast Blues'. Horrid, and done (performed, not written) by no less a singer than Karrin Allyson.

I think part of the problem is the fact that the lyrics were done at a later date, as opposed to the collaborations of the master ASB teams. It's just hard to make something work after the fact like that IMO.

What do yiz think?

 

 

Edited November 5, 2015 by fasstrack

[Dan Gould]

I quite enjoy Giacomo Gates. Here's his lyrics to Lee Morgan's Speedball:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WADMYPHVpsY

Here's Giacomo's lyrics to Epistrophy:

 

 

[duaneiac]

2 hours ago, fasstrack said:

 

Then there's the issue of the after-the-fact tacking on of lyrics to jazz standards. I.e.: 'Believe in your people, just speak no evil' (not even a rhyme) to Speak no Evil; or 'Gig on the west coast, man on the east coast, etc. (or some such) to West Coast Blues'. Horrid, and done by no less a singer than Karrin Allyson.

I think part of the problem is the fact that the lyrics were done at a later date, as opposed to the collaborations of the master ASB teams. It's just hard to make something work after the fact like that IMO.

What do yiz think?

 

 

I don't think it's a matter of when the lyrics were added.  Weren't some of Duke Ellington's songs originally instrumentals, but then lyrics were added later (with his permission/approval, of course)? I'm thinking "Satin Doll" (not my favorite Johnny Mercer lyrics, btw) was done like that, for example.  I think it's more a matter of what a lyricist is attempting to add lyrics to.  Mr. Mercer added lyrics to Ellington/Strayhorn's melody, not to any specific solos by the band members. The songs included in the Great American Songbook, generally speaking, all have strong melodies and the lyrics -- god, bad or indifferent -- were designed to complement those melodies.  It's a different ballgame trying to add lyrics to improvised instrumental solos.  Unlike the composers of the GAS, the jazz soloist isn't likely thinking at the time he/she is recording, "Can I improvise a musical structure which will be creative and accessible enough that a large number of people will want to buy the sheet music and learn to play it for themselves and for their friends and family?".

There was a time when the Manhattan Transfer's version of "Birdland" was a hit and got a lot of radio airplay.  It was and may still be, for the general public, better known than Weather Report's version.  Jon Hendricks' lyrics for that song are okay, they flow well, but the song's melody and structure was very strong to begin with. The same cannot be said of a lot of bebop and post-bop songs.  One of my favorite Man Tran albums was Swing, in which they did vocalese versions of many swing classics, such as "Moten Swing", "Air Mail Special", "King Porter Stomp" and "Nuages".  That material works quite well.  They also did an entire album of Chick Corea songs.  Some of that material works better than others for me.

I'm generally okay with vocalese.  It depends on the performer, as some are more convincing at it than others.  The lyrics don't have to be profound, they just have to fit the melodic structure and tolerable to the ear.  The lyrics added to "I Remember Clifford" aren't the greatest, but they get me every time.  But hey, I really like "Tulip or Turnip" as well, so what do I know?

[fasstrack]

1 minute ago, duaneiac said:

I don't think it's a matter of when the lyrics were added.  Weren't some of Duke Ellington's songs originally instrumentals, but then lyrics were added later (with his permission/approval, of course)? I'm thinking "Satin Doll" (not my favorite Johnny Mercer lyrics, btw) was done like that, for example.  I think it's more a matter of what a lyricist is attempting to add lyrics to.  Mr. Mercer added lyrics to Ellington/Strayhorn's melody, not to any specific solos by the band members. The songs included in the Great American Songbook, generally speaking, all have strong melodies and the lyrics -- god, bad or indifferent -- were designed to complement those melodies.  It's a different ballgame trying to add lyrics to improvised instrumental solos.  Unlike the composers of the GAS, the jazz soloist isn't likely thinking at the time he/she is recording, "Can I improvise a musical structure which will be creative and accessible enough that a large number of people will want to buy the sheet music and learn to play it for themselves and for their friends and family?".

There was a time when the Manhattan Transfer's version of "Birdland" was a hit and got a lot of radio airplay.  It was and may still be, for the general public, better known than Weather Report's version.  Jon Hendricks' lyrics for that song are okay, they flow well, but the song's melody and structure was very strong to begin with. The same cannot be said of a lot of bebop and post-bop songs.  One of my favorite Man Tran albums was Swing, in which they did vocalese versions of many swing classics, such as "Moten Swing", "Air Mail Special", "King Porter Stomp" and "Nuages".  That material works quite well.  They also did an entire album of Chick Corea songs.  Some of that material works better than others for me.

I'm generally okay with vocalese.  It depends on the performer, as some are more convincing at it than others.  The lyrics don't have to be profound, they just have to fit the melodic structure and tolerable to the ear.  The lyrics added to "I Remember Clifford" aren't the greatest, but they get me every time.  But hey, I really like "Tulip or Turnip" as well, so what do I know?

Very good points. I just get personally irritated by 'hipster' lyrics tacked on. I think it's just doomed to failure, but that's just me.

[BFrank]

Eddie Jefferson anyone??

[fasstrack]

1 hour ago, BFrank said:

Eddie Jefferson anyone??

Absolutement. Maybe the best.

[JSngry]