Joe Holiday Prestige 10 inch LPs

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'm just about to rip my Joe Holiday CD, which contains

Joe Holiday - New sounds from Newark - PRLP131

4 tracks from Various artists - Mambo Jazz - PRLP135

Joe Holiday and his band - PREP1305

Joe Holiday and Billy Taylor - Mambo Jazz - PRLP171

What I'm looking for, for PRLP131 and 171, are the track listings, so I can reassemble the original material into it's correct running order. But someone's made big mistakes somewhere on 171 (and I can't find a scan of the label for 131 side B). So does anyone know of a proper authoritative source?

This is what I've got so far.

Ruppli's Prestige discography (and the Jazz discog project on line) say that tracks on 171 are:

Joe Holiday - 9 Dec 1953

Sleep

Besame mucho

I don't want to walk without you

Fiesta

Joe Holiday - 25 Aug 1954

I love you much

Chasin' the bongo

It might as well be spring

And these are the tracks on the OJC CD. This should be an authoritative list.

Here's a scan of side A of the LP

So that's the 9 Dec '53 session OK.

However, the sleeve of the LP has eight titles listed - as frequently happened at Prestige, not in the correct order.

Yes, the four tracks on side A are in there, along with

Candido

I love the mambo

Early morning mambo

Mambo azul

Which, according to both discographies, are 4 Billy Taylor tracks from 7 May 1953, which were included in PREP1327 and (12 inch) PRLP7071. Here's the EP

And Popsike has this image of PRLP171 - with a RED label!

Unfortunately, it's too small to read the label.

So, what's actually on side B of PRLP171 - 3 tracks, as per the discographies, or 4 that are supposed to be elsewhere, as per the LP sleeve?

Anyone know?

And anyone know how to see a scan of side B of PRLP131, so I can get the running order for that one straight?

MG

[jazztrain]

I don't have a definitive answer, but I found a couple of on-line sources that indicate the B side of Prestige PRLP171 contains the following:

>>>

I Love To Mambo

Candido

Early Morning Mambo

Mambo Azul

>>>

If you blow up the image of side B, (try control plus (ctrl+) a few times, it looks like this information may be accurate.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks for the hint, Jazztrain. Never knew I could do that before.

Actually, it looks as if that is side A - the length of the words seems to fit with

Sleep

Besame mucho

I don't want to walk without you

Fiesta

So I seem to be no farther forward except I can eliminate that image as being helpful.

MG

It seems pretty strange that the same LP would be pressed with blue and red labels. Surely this LP couldn't have sold out of its first pressing run and gone into a second?

Or could it?

MG

[jazztrain]

I'm not sure we're looking at the same image.

If you blow up the one below, I think you'll find that it's consistent with the following:

>>>

I Love To Mambo

Candido

Early Morning Mambo

Mambo Azul

>>>

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You're right! Thanks very much!

So it's Jazz Disco org and the Ruppli Prestige discography that are wrong - also the sleeve notes on the OJC CD, which all say that side B is just three tracks by Joe Holiday, not 4 by Billy Taylor.

How could all those organisations get it wrong? Or did they just repeat the same mistake?

 

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

It occurs to me that, because there are pressings with different colour labels, the two pressings might actually have different content. Fantasy Records themselves, when they issued Joe Holiday's OJC CD, thought that the three track B side was correct and I dare say had some documentation to show that.

If indeed those three tracks were never issued on PRLP171, the CD would have been their first issue after the original 78s came out. That seems to me to be a point they would not have missed picking up and mentioning in the sleeve, to attract buyers. Of course, there can always be mistakes, but this seems such a gross error that it's scarcely credible.

I wonder how we can resolve this.

MG

[JSngry]

 

 

 

Neat pictures, anyway.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

Interesting ... Joe Holiday ...

I have been intrigued by his recordings for some time because they seemed to have been overlooked by the reissuers so very constantly throughout the vinyl era when almost every snippet of 50s Prestige was recycled in more than one form.

In the past 7-8 years I finally managed to obtain both his "Holiday for Jazz" CD on Fresh Sound and his "Mamob Jazz" CD on Prestige/OJC.

Now I am not quite sure if I understood all your questions correctly.

On my copy of the OJC CD the final 7 tracks are listed as coming from the 171 10-inch LP, and as far as I can tell the tracks are in this order (and they all have a tenor sax - i.e. Joe Holiday):

Sleep - Besame Mucho - I Don't Want To Walk With You - Fiesta- I Love You Much - Chasin' The Bongo - It Might As Well Be Spring

The Japanese "Prestige Book" published in the "Jazz Critique" series in the 1990s ("Jazz Critique 1996 No 3") gives the following track listing and (presumably) track order for LP 171:

Sleep - Besame Mucho - I Don't want To Walk Without You - I Love You Much - Chasin' The Bongo - It Might As Well Be Spring

Assuming that they just omitted Fiesta by error this would confirm the indications in the liner notes of the OJC CD. However, the OJC CD had already been released by the time the Japanese book was published (they mention the CD reissue) so who knows if this is where they got their information and not from the original 10-incher? Although THAT would uncommonly sloppy for Japanese jazz fanatics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

 

 

 

Neat pictures, anyway.

 

Thanks Jim, but Prestige 10" sleeves seldom had the correct track listing. And this is a different LP anyway - it's PRLP135, a various artists compilation, not either of the Joe Holiday LPs.

MG

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Interesting ... Joe Holiday ...

I have been intrigued by his recordings for some time because they seemed to have been overlooked by the reissuers so very constantly throughout the vinyl era when almost every snippet of 50s Prestige was recycled in more than one form.

In the past 7-8 years I finally managed to obtain both his "Holiday for Jazz" CD on Fresh Sound and his "Mamob Jazz" CD on Prestige/OJC.

Now I am not quite sure if I understood all your questions correctly.

On my copy of the OJC CD the final 7 tracks are listed as coming from the 171 10-inch LP, and as far as I can tell the tracks are in this order (and they all have a tenor sax - i.e. Joe Holiday):

Sleep - Besame Mucho - I Don't Want To Walk With You - Fiesta- I Love You Much - Chasin' The Bongo - It Might As Well Be Spring

The Japanese "Prestige Book" published in the "Jazz Critique" series in the 1990s ("Jazz Critique 1996 No 3") gives the following track listing and (presumably) track order for LP 171:

Sleep - Besame Mucho - I Don't want To Walk Without You - I Love You Much - Chasin' The Bongo - It Might As Well Be Spring

Assuming that they just omitted Fiesta by error this would confirm the indications in the liner notes of the OJC CD. However, the OJC CD had already been released by the time the Japanese book was published (they mention the CD reissue) so who knows if this is where they got their information and not from the original 10-incher? Although THAT would uncommonly sloppy for Japanese jazz fanatics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the problem, Steve. People are taking info for PRLP171 from what are legitimately assumed to be authoritative sources, but those sources don't agree with the label scans we looked at earlier. So, are those label scans that don't agree with the authoritative sources scans from second (or anyway different) pressings or are they pirates? And what pirate in his right mind would pirate this stuff anyway? So that's laughable. We know those people who've put the images on the web aren't lying, because they were trying to sell those LPs and using fictitious label scans is a sure route to trouble, so the only rational explanations are that the whole of the Prestige/Fantasy data is cocked up, or that Fantasy didn't realise Prestige had done two pressings, because no one who knew about them was around in 1979 when Ruppli did his research into the Prestige discography.

The only way we can catch this is to find someone who has a copy of the LP as Ruppli/Fantasy/Jazz Disco Org says it was.

According to Wiki, Joe Holiday is still alive... somewhere.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, MG, as far as I can see the track listing on the CD seems to be in the correct order (comparing the track sequence on the CD to the sequence of the track titles on the "cover"/inlay.

Of course, if you want to really rip what you have in the order that it appeared on the 10-inch vinyl then there IS a problem (it took me a second or third reading of your earlier posts to grasp that ... ;)). The only explanation that I have is that there were two pressings, probably the first one incorrect and the second one correct. Or the music on the vinyl always was correct but was misidientifed on the cover (which tended to happen, it seems) and also on the label, maybe because someone mistook the session by Joe Holiday including Billy Taylor on one of the two sides for a leader date by Billy Taylor? The answer to this would have to come from someone who has a copy of LP 171. Or maybe there was a review of that LP in Down Beat or Metronome? No doubt they would have noticed an entire LP side that was identified incorrectly, particularly if the tracks had been around on 78 before? And if they did not mention this then this might indicate that that LP indeed had one side without Joe Holiday.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

[JSngry]

http://collectorsfrenzy.com/details/130582187863/Mambo_JazzPrestige_PRLP17110era_195354Billy_Taylor__Joe_Holiday

Mambo Jazz,Prestige prLP-171 not listed in Goldmine's 6th edition guide, Billy Taylor-piano & organ, Joe Holiday-tenor sax, Earl May-bass, Charlie Smith-congos, Uba Nieto-timbole, Joe Mangual-bongo.  Side A: Sleep, Besame Mucho, I Don't Want To Walk Without You, Fiesta, side B: I Love To Mambo, Candido, Early Morning Mambo, Mambo Azul. 

Jacket: Old tape 3 sides, split 3 1/2" bottom, split top & left side--all splits covered by tape. graphics strong, minor wear on back, but all listings can be clearly read.

Record: Small fine scratches both sides, but few obvious longer ones; background static light on all, 2 skips on Besame Mucho, one on I Love To Mambo, Early Morning Mambo catches near end--must move needle.  Still good listening.

Joe Holiday Prestige singles:

67: JOE HOLIDAY - This is Happiness/Mighty Like a Rose

772: JOE HOLIDAY - Mambo Holiday (part 1 & 2)

786: JOE HOLIDAY - Serenata/Cuban Nightingale

791: JOE HOLIDAY - Donde/Joe Black Mambo

815: JOE HOLIDAY - I Hadn't Anyone Till You/Blue Holiday

848: JOE HOLIDAY - Hello to You/Like Someone in Love

871: JOE HOLIDAY - Cotton Candy/And Now it's Love

878: JOE HOLIDAY - Besame Mucho/Fiesta

883: JOE HOLIDAY - Sleep/My Funny Valentine

887: JOE HOLIDAY - Martha's Harp/I Don't Want to Talk without You

897: JOE HOLIDAY - I Love You Much/Chasin' the Boogie

901: JOE HOLIDAY - It Might as Well Be Spring

Bold = on PRLP 131

Bold Italic Purple= on prEP 1302 & PRLP 135

Bold Blue = on prEP 1305

Bold Italic Red = on PRLP 171

Bold Green = Apparently not reissued until OJC CD.

EPs:

prEP 1302: Latin Moods (Joe Holiday) http://www.discogs.com/Joe-Holiday-Latin-Moods/release/6271850

prEP 1305: Joe Holiday and His Band (Joe Holiday) http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/cp_images/6/e/c/c4662-2.jpg

LPs:

131: Joe Holiday -The New Sounds From Newark   (pictured above)

135: Mambo Jazz - Sonny Rollins, Sonny Stitt, Joe Holiday, Kenny Graham (also pictured above)

171: Mambo Jazz - Joe Holiday, Billy Taylor (pictured above, several times)

and that's the end of Joe Holiday on Prestige.

For Billy Taylor prEP 1327, that was recorded 5/07/53: http://www.jazzdisco.org/prestige-records/catalog-ep-prestige-1300-new-jazz-1700-series/

So that's what happened - Weinstock orphaned four cuts that didn't get reissued until the OJC CD.

PRLP 171 was always a compilation of four Holiday singles with Taylor in the band (assuming that the singles were released first, which may not be the case) and a similarly-themed Billy Taylor EP. The cover art leaves no doubt about that.

Apparently there was a "mambo craze" in the US ca. 1952-53, so that's what all this mamboishness was about, and it maybe also explains why those four cuts got orphaned, maybe the craze was over before they could get crazed on.

[Big Beat Steve]

Fine research! Hats off!

N.B: Is it Chasin The Boogie or rather Chasin' The Bongo as listed in several (post-78rpm release) sources?.

[JSngry]

No idea. I've never actually heard any of this stuff.

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, "Chasin' The Bongo" (as listed on the OJC CD) does not sound very boogie-ish to me at all but like a(nother) mambo indeed.

MG, what's your opinion?

 

BTW, Jepsen's discography (which of course is not without errors but was a major, REALLY major accomplishment in its day IMO) lists this track of Prestige 897 as "Tea For Two", and actually the theme of "Chasin' .." does have some similarities ...

Edited October 14, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[king ubu]

 

 

Thanks for compiling all the info on Holiday here, guys!

Coincidentally just bought the disc a couple of weeks ago.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Well, it's a BIG thank you to Jim, for unravelling all that! Don't know how you do that, I was doing image searches on Google for ages and only turned up what I posted earlier.

THANK YOU JIM!!!!!

MG

Well, "Chasin' The Bongo" (as listed on the OJC CD) does not sound very boogie-ish to me at all but like a(nother) mambo indeed.

MG, what's your opinion?

 

BTW, Jepsen's discography (which of course is not without errors but was a major, REALLY major accomplishment in its day IMO) lists this track of Prestige 897 as "Tea For Two", and actually the theme of "Chasin' .." does have some similarities ...

Ruppli's PR discography gives 'Chasin the bongo' as the title, and I think that'll be right.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Ruppli's PR discography gives 'Chasin the bongo' as the title, and I think that'll be right.

MG

Agreed.

BTW, that Japanese Prestige book I mentioned earlier lists that tune as "Chasin The Bongo" under LP 171 but as "Chasin The Boogie" under the 78rpm entry. Label misprint on the 78? Anybody got a copy of that one?

I just wonder what made Jepsen list this as "Tea For Two". The theme IS very similar but how did that title come about? Maybe Jepsen never saw the actual 78s and was just given tape dubs to listen to (and to identify because the track titles were omitted?). Funny things happened to discographers in those pioneering days. Neither Jepsen nor others could have listened to or even seen all of the records they included but had to rely on contributors. In some cases they seem to have given him entire listings of labels that had jazz-related R&B recordings but nobody seems to have bothered to listen to the records to filter out the actually relevant ones. And so some full-fledged rockabilly records found their way into Jepsen's books (just because they were on labels that had lots of R&B, such as Sun)!

 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Big Beat Steve