We can’t leave it to the elite to decide who’s cultured

[A Lark Ascending]

Oh yes...

We can’t leave it to the elite to decide who’s cultured

In the past, the conservatively cultured said, “You’ll never be like us.” Now the progressively cultured say, “You can be like us but you’ve got to put some effort in.” Neither have an answer to the question: “But what if we don’t want to be like you?”

The list referred to in the article is as follows. I think they missed 'listening to folk/jazz/blues/world music' and 'affecting a preference for dead maestros over living musicians':

 SO WHAT EXACTLY MAKES YOU CULTURED? THE LIST IN FULL
1. Go to the theatre
2. Can recognise paintings/art
3. Visit local heritage sites
4. Listen to classical music
5. Go to the ballet
6. Know what wine goes with what
7. Don’t skip the news when it’s on TV
8. Watch documentaries
9. Can read music
10. Take an avid interest in politics
11. Read daily newspapers
12. Take countryside walks
13. Read a book before bed
14. Choose city breaks over beach holidays
15. Watch Question Time
16. Host dinner parties
17. Know about cheese
18. Enjoy crosswords or Sudoku
19. Go to vintage markets
20. Know about cuts of meat 
21. Watch tennis or cricket 
22. Read a book before the film comes out
23. Watch Antiques Road Show
24. Own a library card
25. Watch films with subtitles
26. Visit farm shops
27. Use chopsticks over a knife and fork
28. Drink 'proper' coffee - not instant
29. Know how to pronounce 'quinoa'
30. Grow your own fruit and vegetables on an allotment
31. Go to music festivals
32. Collect music on vinyl
33. Read Wikipedia articles
34. Only eat local produce
35. Get the conundrum on Countdown
36. Wear bow-ties or brooches
37. Get food from supermarket 'finer' ranges
38. Drink herbal tea
39. Put on an accent to pronounce foreign words
40. Avoid generic superstore furniture

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3240407/Owning-library-card-watching-subtitled-films-skilled-use-chopsticks-traits-make-cultured.html

I scored 16! On my way to being cultured it would seem! 

Edited September 21, 2015 by A Lark Ascending

[Jazzjet]

I got about 16 as well although it's a pretty dodgy list ('wear bow ties or brooches'?). Of course my score would be dramatically reduced by having to read the Daily Mail site.

[king ubu]

Can't leave it to Bev to judge dead maestros.

[A Lark Ascending]

I got about 16 as well although it's a pretty dodgy list ('wear bow ties or brooches'?). Of course my score would be dramatically reduced by having to read the Daily Mail site.

Yes, typical pub list. And rather Anglo-centric. Watching cricket? I suppose watching cricket if you live in Finland would be a sign of cultural elitism. In this day and age watching football or supporting a team ought to be there. 

Of course there are multiple cultures within every country. The kids in the area where I used to work are every bit as concerned to align themselves to a prevailing culture but I doubt if they'd recognise many of those points as things to aspire towards. 

But I think the main article says some very pertinent things about the cultural assumptions that drive a lot of decision making in the BBC, Arts Council etc.

One thing that has changed in that 'elite' cultural world-view can be seen in the Guardian website. Up until a few months back there were separate tabs in the music area for folk and jazz. They seem to be gone - the only options are 'classical' (what the elite are taught to admire in a particular way at their expensive schools) and 'Music' which is dominated by pop/rock, especially in its more alternative forms (what the elite choose to do when they are not placing their vitals in dead pigs' heads).  

[GA Russell]

I'm at 14, so I guess I'm not as cultured as Bev!

[JSngry]

I don't see the ability to contextualize a fart on that list, so I'm skeptical about the whole thing.

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm at 14, so I guess I'm not as cultured as Bev!

Ah, but you're at a disadvantage for being American. So you start on 10, giving you a final score of 24, well ahead on me!

Now if you were French you'd start at -10 because you'd have assumed from birth that you are an intellectual.

[Health warning - one of those smileys denoting the tongue-in-cheek nature of those assertions...if we could add 'refusing to use smileys' to the list I could pump up my score to 17!]

Edited September 21, 2015 by A Lark Ascending

[TedR]

I'd like permission to replace "Watch Antiques Road Show" with "Watch American Pickers" then I'll add it up. I've learned a lot more watching American Pickers. :-))

[JSngry]

Yeah, I'm skeptical about this whole thing. Let's review:

1. Go to the theatre - You'll recieve further instructions once there.
2. Can recognise paintings/art - Well, that's being educated, of course, but so is being able to recognize tools in the hardware store.
3. Visit local heritage sites - oh, like the Waffle House at 2 AM on a Saturday Morning? If so, I agree!
4. Listen to classical music - yeah, listen to it, listen to all the other noise in the air too. But what about making your own noise? Or being able to knowingly select other people's noise to bring in to your noise? Are we breeding culture or directing consumerism?
5. Go to the ballet - I watch the squirrels in my back yard. Close enough, or, at least, more available.
6. Know what wine goes with what - Don't like wine, might - or might not - be a borderline alcoholic. Does being able to appreciate a Grapette and loathe a Fanta count?
7. Don’t skip the news when it’s on TV - Yes, everybody needs a nap in between getting news updates on the phone all day.
8. Watch documentaries - this is like "listen to classical music", just plop your ass down where something is happening. Hell, there's bars for that.
9. Can read music - I'm all in favor of learning a foreign language, but isn't it better to be able to be fluently conversational than to only be able to read a guidebook?
10. Take an avid interest in politics - This list was prepared by sheepherders, correct?
11. Read daily newspapers - oh please.
12. Take countryside walks - hell, walk anywhere, period. It's good exercise. And if you're urban, walk in alleys. You'll certainly see some culture there, trust me.
13. Read a book before bed - instead of having sex?
14. Choose city breaks over beach holidays - but then what happens to my countryside walks?
15. Watch Question Time - Ask you own damn questions, get your own damn answers.
16. Host dinner parties - for who?
17. Know about cheese - cheese is delicious, it makes you fat, and is better consumed when provided by somebody else. That's all you really need to know, that, and to be gracious about it.
18. Enjoy crosswords or Sudoku - Crosswords, yeah, Sudoku, never got into it. But that's recreation, not culture.
19. Go to vintage markets - why, to buy old food?
20. Know about cuts of meat - homemakers across the ages will advise of the wisdom of this, as well as the practicality of knowing what to do with them after you get them home.
21. Watch tennis or cricket - oh HELL no.
22. Read a book before the film comes out - so...if they never make a film out of a book it can be ignored without consequence? If not, I guess I should base my reading habits on the entertainment pages, whenever a new project is announced, I should go scurrying to find the book and get busy.
23. Watch Antiques Road Show - Hey, that's a good show. And our local Anglo-felatiating PBS ensures that we have access to both the American and British versions!
24. Own a library card -  And carry it with you on your countryside walks.
25. Watch films with subtitles - Oh, cool, now I can stay at home and watch TV. Everything's got subtitles when you turn your closed-captioning on!
26. Visit farm shops - Oh yeah, right. And pay waaay too much. Although...a few weeks ago, I did go out to a local (actually inside city limits) dairy, and bought a gallon of raw milk (delicious!) and a couple pounds of cheese. By the time it was over, I had gained almost ten pounds and had discovered several new odors of flatulence. But they were contextualized!
27. Use chopsticks over a knife and fork -  Mmmmm...good steak!
28. Drink 'proper' coffee - not instant - people still drink instant coffee? by choice? Seriously?
29. Know how to pronounce 'quinoa' - why, so you can order it? I'd rather know somebody who butchers the pronunciation but knows how to fix the hell out of it!
30. Grow your own fruit and vegetables on an allotment - Wow, my grandparents were, like, supremely cultured, and for them, taking a countryside walk meant going to visit the neighbors.
31. Go to music festivals -yeah, just show up again.
32. Collect music on vinyl - now I know this is the devil's work.Or at least a male's.
33. Read Wikipedia articles - Sure! Beats reading books & newspapers, watching documentaries, and TV news.
34. Only eat local produce - I consider it local enough if I can leave home and come back with it. If I can get it at a farmer's market, that's like, uber-local. Otherwise, I don't have a root cellar and prefer to not be at the mercy of the seasons. But when the shit's in season and Ali & Hassan got it at their market, hell yeah, carpe diem, nothing is finer. 10 minutes each way ain't no kind of a drive!
35. Get the conundrum on Countdown - that sounds like something they say on those World Poker tour shows. Sorry, but Hold'Em is not real poker.
36. Wear bow-ties or brooches - oh HELLLLLL no. Although, hey, say what you will about Farakhan, that man can rock a bow tie.
37. Get food from supermarket 'finer' ranges - if you can't cook, it don't matter what you buy, it's gonna end up shit. And if you CAN cook, hey.
38. Drink herbal tea - "herb"? "tea" in a "pot"? Ok, I get it, this is a stealth stoner list.
39. Put on an accent to pronounce foreign words - like Peter Sellers, right? Ok, I'm down with that!
40. Avoid generic superstore furniture - I try to avoid fast food too, but sometimes you just gotta move on to other things, and it's the shortest distance between two points. Life is not perfect.

[erwbol]

Why isn't the following point included?

41. Knowledge of old and new testaments for a proper understanding of classic literature

Edited September 21, 2015 by erwbol

[JSngry]

Probably because "cultured" is an easier sell than "educated".

[catesta]

Thanks for the laugh Jim.

[JSngry]

Don't thank me, thank Flora Drury via Dreda Say Mitchell, who seem to think that Where You Show Up is more important than What You Take Home.

Edited September 21, 2015 by JSngry

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I like Jim's responses. Mine are very much less helpful.

1. Go to the theatre I did up to the age of 25; what does that mean?
2. Can recognise paintings/art I can tell a painting from a  photo when I look at it. I can identify some artists others can't, but not lots others can. So what?
3. Visit local heritage sites If you stay in the same area, how many times in one lifetime are you supposed to visit the same damn places to get a tick here?
4. Listen to classical music Not most of it, only French chamber music, and not much of that. Does it count?
5. Go to the ballet Never
6. Know what wine goes with what Don't like wine much, don't care about what goes with what.
7. Don’t skip the news when it’s on TV When I was in the politics business, I never skipped it. Now I'm free, I never watch ANY TV.
8. Watch documentaries See 7
9. Can read music Nope
10. Take an avid interest in politics See 7
11. Read daily newspapers See 7
12. Take countryside walks It's countryside at the end of our road. Taking the dog for a piss is out into the country.
13. Read a book before bed What about if you only read at mealtimes?
14. Choose city breaks over beach holidays I don't really think I understand what other people mean by a city break. Does a few days in Paris buried in African cassette shops or jazz vinyl count as a city break? My wife said, last time, how can you go to Paris and not go to a museum? Certainly not the beach.
15. Watch Question Time See 7
16. Host dinner parties Nope
17. Know about cheese I know enough to dislike a lot and like some. So what?
18. Enjoy crosswords or Sudoku Can't be bothered.
19. Go to vintage markets Cardiff Market, where Kelly's second hand records may be bought, was built in 1891. Does that make it vintage?
20. Know about cuts of meat My Missus does all that stuff.

21. Watch tennis or cricket See 7. Not live, either.
22. Read a book before the film comes out Who cares about films coming out or not? Not I. I can't be arsed to go to the cinema.
23. Watch Antiques Road Show See 7
24. Own a library card Yes, but the library's closed through local inanition.
25. Watch films with subtitles See 7
26. Visit farm shops See 20
27. Use chopsticks over a knife and fork Nope.
28. Drink 'proper' coffee - not instant Only drink coffee in France or America, because the tea's crap in those places.
29. Know how to pronounce 'quinoa' I certainly know how to avoid eating it.
30. Grow your own fruit and vegetables on an allotment Gercha!
31. Go to music festivals Hm... not since Brecon in 2000. Won't afford it now.
32. Collect music on vinyl Oh, all right, I'll give you that one, but as little as possible, because they're hard to listen to on my ipod.
33. Read Wikipedia articles I look stuff up on Wiki if I want to. So yes, but what the hell is this supposed to indicate? That I can spell?
34. Only eat local produce Nope
35. Get the conundrum on Countdown Bollocks!
36. Wear bow-ties or brooches Nope
37. Get food from supermarket 'finer' ranges See 20
38. Drink herbal tea Nope
39. Put on an accent to pronounce foreign words Dunno, maybe. But I KNOW I don't put on an American accent when I pronounce American words.
40. Avoid generic superstore furniture I bleedin' HATE Ikea, but you can't get along without it.

So basically I get one whole point  (for 32) and three halves (28, 31 & 33). Assuming I've understood what the questions REALLY meant, if anything.

And Bev's first post had the right bit at the beginning. Who the hell wants to be like this?

MG

[JSngry]

  13. Read a book before bed

What about if you only read at mealtimes?

I just realize here that they are asking me to change my toilet habits, and, really, just who the hell do they think they are to be doing that?

[Shawn]

They can take this list and shove it up their cultured asses.  

[JSngry]

Hey, somebody from over there, answer me this - my wife and I got self-suckered into watching one-  JUST one -episode of the BBC Bake-Off thing on our aforementioned PBS outlet last night, and some chick named Sue Perkins told this one dude named Howard that he was a "clever sausage"...and what we both wanted to know is that how do you let somebody call you that without slapping the living shit out of them? I mean, Howard seemed to be a nice meek guy who kept getting his custard stolen by a klady who looked like a sad puppy with glasses, or something like that, but this Sue Perkins was getting on our last good nerve every time she opened her mouth, but, you know, I don't pay to go thorough life unirritated, so...but still, somebody calls me a "clever sausage", I'm, like, not letting that one slide without demanding an explanation along the lines of "You think I'm funny?"

No wonder the angst about being "cultured", if it's a compliment to be compared to encased ground-up pig parts that are going to get ground up further by all kinds of crooked teeth, broken down by stomach acids and such, and then shit out under god knows what conditions! Clever or not, still sausage, ok?

OTOH, we got a kick out of the contestant named Christine (or was it Christina), the middle-aged lady whose husband "loved his food, he does"), she had a sweet but wicked twinkle in her eyes that suggested that she was no strange to handling all kinds of sausages in all kinds of ways to get them to do what needed to be done, if you know what I mean. And she took a lot of pride in her work, as well as obviously placing a premium on learning and being to execute as best as she possibly could, not to be  a showoff, but just because, hey, this is what I do, I need it to be my best. That lady was ok with me. But that Sue Perkins...switch to a decaf maybe?

[Larry Kart]

I'm cultured; you, perhaps, are not. And I get to decide if you are.

[JSngry]

One of the best days of my life was when i realized that you really could tell somebody "fuck you" with a heart full of love and a face full of grin and be 100% sincere about all of it, all at the exact same time. Like, ok, you can go there, and we can go to some other theres, no problem, but we are not going to go there about this.

Not quite as good was discovering bold and underling features in digital documentation, but that one was up there too.

Here's Christine. Still photography does not do her justice, and c'mon show the teeth, it's ok, we expect it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/bPXmH6tsHJDfJKlkkWwp2n/christine

Christine

Christine's a perfectionist and is super-organised. Baking is her way of relaxing as she juggles family and work life.

Fact title	Fact data
Age	66

 

She has 60 years of baking experience, having baked with her grandmother since she was a little girl. She likes to put her twist on traditional bakes, and her favourite things to bake are cakes, especially occasion cakes where she can go to town with the different flavours and sugar work.

When they say "go to town", that's for real, this lady was having a blast, no unlike watching a great player who still LOLs at the cool parts of a piece. Just...delightfully contagious and contagiously delightful!

[HutchFan]

Probably because "cultured" is an easier sell than "educated".

Exactly. 

I thought "cultured" people were individuals who had spent some time cultivating their minds. 

Looking at this list, you'd think that being cultured has more to do with the places you shop and the products you buy.  "Culture" as a marketing exercise, a lifestyle choice.

Hmm. I guess that's where we're at.

Ugh.

[A Lark Ascending]

Add to 'being cultured' list:

• Don't watch TV
• Despise shopping

 

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Probably because "cultured" is an easier sell than "educated".

Exactly. 

I thought "cultured" people were individuals who had spent some time cultivating their minds. 

Looking at this list, you'd think that being cultured has more to do with the places you shop and the products you buy.  "Culture" as a marketing exercise, a lifestyle choice.

Hmm. I guess that's where we're at.

Ugh.

Well, that might be the score in Georgia, but not in England. 950 years after the conquest, we're still two nations, one of which speaks using LOTS of words of French derivation, the other speaks using words of Anglo-Saxon derivation; ie, we're still Normans and Saxons, at bottom. And you KNOW which lot is the 'cultured' lot. Not the effin' Saxons.

Bev, there's some educational research from the seventies that underlines this - looking into kids 'articulation'. The Saxons were thought by their teachers to be inarticulate, the Normans articulate. But the researchers, analysing the recordings of the kids, found there was no difference in the kids' ability to communicate whatever they were supposed to communicate; they just used different words. Our fault for having suck a perrverse history and more perverse language.

MG

Add to 'being cultured' list:

• Don't watch TV
• Despise shopping

 

Well, at least I don't despise shopping

But the writers of the Daily Mail list several times put in points for which you HAVE to watch TV. They can't have it both ways and, in fairness, didn't try to.

MG

[danasgoodstuff]

Straw man beating a dead horse with a red herring.

[A Lark Ascending]

MG wrote:

Bev, there's some educational research from the seventies that underlines this - looking into kids 'articulation'. The Saxons were thought by their teachers to be inarticulate, the Normans articulate. But the researchers, analysing the recordings of the kids, found there was no difference in the kids' ability to communicate whatever they were supposed to communicate; they just used different words. Our fault for having suck a perrverse history and more perverse language.

Don't they speak ancient Celt where you are? Suppressed elsewhere by the Anglo-Saxons!

The list is of course silly - I can't quite work out if the researchers came up with it or if it was made up from responses to their survey.

It's the main article I find interesting - the idea that your 'Normans', instead of using 'Culture' and 'Art' to exclude the masses are now welcoming the masses in as long as they admire it on their terms (i.e. keeping power in their hands). I'm not sure it's that recent a phenomena - after all the original Reithian briefing of the BBC included 'educating' and the Third Programme (now Radio 3) made quite clear what people needed educating about (lots of string quartets but let's keep that jazz stuff to a minimum).  

You can see something parallel going on in the machinations of our political leaders at present. Out go the traditional or sociological class demarcations of old. We now have two classes - The Hard Working Family; and the Scroungers and their Apologists. By encouraging the middle 60% to believe that they are part of the first group and need to despise the second, attention is deflected from themselves hanging onto their privileges and extending them.

So by encouraging all those Hard Working Families to embrace 'our' culture there's no danger of it ever being taken away. 

There was a good recent example of rallying everybody to 'our' culture in defence of 'God Save The Queen'. 

 

[BillF]

As MG wisely opines,"Bollox"!