Oscar Peterson album for those who don't like much OP

[Big Beat Steve]

Again, my point was that a jazz guitarist of some considerable stature had decided to go down the route of, for want of a better term, "instrumental embroidery." Off the top of my head, I couldn't and can't think of a comparable jazz artist on any instrument who had done something similar -- and by that I don't mean BTW had taken a "pop" route, which is not I think what Pass had done. 

Fine for him, fine for those who dug it, but worth, I thought, noting in a review and weighing in on what I thought the losses of this change in approach might be. 

Don Shirley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5c_zu86SAI&index=9&list=PL7fwS1wWjrTs5UwT7XVfkxT9wXxrz6k2S

 

 

I do see what you mean and I can understand that sort of reservations. I just find it a pity that these reservations about his "instrumental embroidery" seem to have invalidated his accomplishments. I can only imagine what that gig was like and I even think that I might have been disappointed too if I had wanted some all-out jazz improvsations but OTOH others may value these displays of fluency and mastery of the instrument in a different way and isnt it utlimately the artist's decision in which direction he might want to go, at least at that moment (AFAIK he had not forsaken all-out jazz guitar playing at that time for good?).

As for "pop" routes, this obviously raises the question of which would have been "worse" (or to put it more kindly, more of a pity). Say, if Joe Pass at that time had turned "pop" the way Wes Montgomery or George Benson did? The usual retorts would of course have been "man he gotta eat too", but if this is so, how about Joe Pass' motivations being soemthing like "man he wanted to have some fun too"?

[JSngry]

The Stones Jazz is actually pretty darn good overall. I'll play that one of free will sometimes.

 

 

 

[king ubu]

[Ted O'Reilly]

Okay, I'm slow....  What is this signifying?

[AllenLowe]

like OP  - it is domineering yet....unsatisfying.

[danasgoodstuff]

I generally don't much like either Joe Pass or OP as a leader, although I'm generally fine with many dates with OP as a sideman and am looking for Joe Pass's tribute to Hank Williams which he in effect co-leads with Roy Clark.  I find OP to be a bit of a steamroller quite often; I do like both Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel and when their contributions 'carbonate' the trio, it's better.  I like the 3 Sounds because I hear it as more of a group than most of OP's trio records that I've heard.  Later Gene Harris I'm not to big on.  The Joe Pass Stones record I'd like to hear, but not enuff to pay good money for it.

[JSngry]

Oh, don't pay good money for it, hell no, it's not THAT good. More like second-hand store/Internet Is Your Friend good.

[clifford_thornton]

Did someone say something about Mal Waldron? He's great. This Oscar Peterson character, well... I don't get the attraction beyond a surface level.

[Peter Friedman]

I tend to agree with Larry with respect to Joe Pass playing solo guitar. Too much embroidery and emphasis on technique. Did not usually swing, and did not reach me emotionally, with just a few exceptions.

But in small group setting such as the various Basie Jams ( to select just one example) he could swing beautifully and , to me, was a fine jazz player.

[JSngry]

Norman Granz should have had a Pablo Records Thanksgiving Day Parade, just like Macy's. Think of all the great giant helium balloons the label's roster would have made - and they would still be with us today.

[king ubu]

Okay, I'm slow....  What is this signifying?

 

"[...] not only is ornament produced by criminals but also a crime is committed through the fact that ornament inflicts serious insury on people's health, on the national budget and hence on cultural evolution."

[Big Beat Steve]

Compared to the massive buildings from (I guess) roughly that period that one sees consistently in old pics on SHORPY that building there is next to nothing. And honestly, I find a lot of more recently built pseudo-modern, pseudo-modernistic (but in fact just showy) buildings for uses like this much more overbearing. And by us Yurpean standards, there are MUCH worse (and potentially criminal) banks (and banksters) than any Raiffeisenbank, ain't it, Flurin?

[king ubu]

Well, it's the famous "Haus ohne Augenbrauen" ... Adolf Loos (author of "Ornament and Crime" from which the above quote should be - I just googled it up while at work) would turn in his grave upon seing the foogly flower pots, it was supposed to look more like on the left pic here:

and it generated a nice scandal in plush late-rococo Austria (not sure rococo has already ended there, but they've had Thomas Bernard and they still have Jelinek and Haneke, so in every case it's their own fault ) (and yeah, I guess there are much worse than any kind of Raisseisenbank indeed)

 

but then having this kind of discussion in relation to jazz ends up in having a discussion about degrees, not one about any either-or dichotomy ... unless you want your jazz limited to, say, Phill Niblock.

Edited September 2, 2015 by king ubu

[Ted O'Reilly]

Okay, I'm slow....  What is this signifying?

 

"[...] not only is ornament produced by criminals but also a crime is committed through the fact that ornament inflicts serious insury on people's health, on the national budget and hence on cultural evolution."

So, this is not to your taste?

[JSngry]

The difference is that Christmas comes but once a year.

[king ubu]

Okay, I'm slow....  What is this signifying?

 

"[...] not only is ornament produced by criminals but also a crime is committed through the fact that ornament inflicts serious insury on people's health, on the national budget and hence on cultural evolution."

So, this is not to your taste?

that is indeed pretty close to how i imagine hell

[Steve Reynolds]

Amazing that someone can decide that later Mal Waldron isn't as strong as early Mal Waldron without ever really having listened. 

the *great* Mal Waldron, may I add

then again, I've heard this from many about many great musicians that they've hardly ever listened to. I would expect nothing less, I suppose

as far as OP, not interested. 

 

 

 

Transyvanian Dance, baby

[mjzee]

But for Pass, who again wasn`t always this way, decoration is the name of the game. Typically he picks sweet, familar pop tunes (``I`ll Remember April,`` ``Polka Dots and Moonbeams,`` ``Just the Way You Are,`` ``Satin Doll`` etc.) and proceeds to state and restate them--draping them in cobwebs of subtle chords and throwing in an occasional bluesy run.

What is missing, though, is any sense of linear invention, any feeling that the original melodic impulse of the songs Pass likes to play has stirred a new melodic idea in his own mind. (From that point of view, those bluesy licks are quite revealing, for they have much the same shape, no matter what piece Pass is performing.)

 

Larry, I loved these sentences, and it reminded me again why I love to read good criticism (and, perhaps, why I can't write it): it verbalizes thoughts about music that I have but cannot articulate beyond "good," "not good," "boring," etc.  Please keep posting!

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, solo Pass can be snoozy, but if he has a band kicking his butt, the results could be very listenable.  I recommend Live At Donte's (Pablo, never reissued on CD) and the two Live At Yoshi's volumes.  Also interesting is "Whitestone," his attempt at GRP-type jazz.  Not as bad as you might imagine.

[Larry Kart]

Thanks mjzee. One fairly early (at least in his recording career) Pass performance I recall with pleasure is "Teri" with the Gerald Wilson big band. I dug the harp-like things he got going there, which were attractive in themselves and right in tune with Wilson's piece.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Larry Kart

[Milestones]

I really like Pass' performance on Dizzy's Big 4.   The records with Herb Ellis are also quite good.

 

[mjzee]

A (sometimes) frustration I have with this board is that listeners are often not critical enough.  A collector might want all of Thelonious Monk's recordings, but are they all really equally good?  Critical listening can establish "this recording date is better than that recording date, and here's why."  And it's interesting to read why, because only in that way can I get a sense of what someone else hears (as well as helping me to better articulate what I hear).  It would be useful to establish a guidepost, as in "The 5 Best Thelonious Monk Recording Dates," to truly force a critical evaluation of why and how one date is better than another.  I think this would enable us all to be better listeners, or at least to better understand how different people hear differently.

To bring the discussion full circle back to OP, a great example of this sort of exercise was Ethan Iverson's dissection of an OP performance.  While I could hear OP playing in a facile and routine way, Iverson helped me pinpoint the moments in the performance that are facile and routine, and what makes them so.  You can read his piece here: Do The Math.

Some examples:

This helped me understand what Peterson played, i.e., how we can identify OP when hearing a recording: Peterson's language was perhaps not truly innovative, but it certainly is distinctive.  Major elements of his style include a precisely calibrated piano touch that executed both swing and bebop phraseology with crystalline clarity, a rigorous insistence on the blues, a left hand that could play nearly as fast as his right, exceptionally large voicings (his hands were enormous) and complicated small ensemble arrangements.  His phrasing when improvising is breathless, with very little space. 

Or this, about a major deficiency in OP's approach; even if one can hear this and react negatively to it, it helps me to read an explication of what's being played: Peterson’s piano solos aren’t the problem, but Peterson participating in a rhythm section is: behind the horn solos, the piano comping (short for "accompaniment") is incessant.  It begins to feel quite nervous and jittery after a while.  A good example is the Peterson trio backing Lester Young with little-known but totally solid J.C.  Heard on drums.  Peterson cannot stop playing the piano for even a second.  ("He leaves no holes for the rhythm section.")

Although I do wish Iverson addressed what I hear, which is that OP could sound oppressive even when playing solo, with his carpet-like playing determined to avoid a real emotional connection to his vision of the tune.

Anyway, I guess I'm just pointing out some things that I like.  People don't sign up to this board to be given more work to do; they're just enthusiasts for the music, and more power to them.  I do like the posts that are well written.

[HutchFan]

I really like Pass' performance on Dizzy's Big 4.   The records with Herb Ellis are also quite good.

 

Me too.

[HutchFan]

A (sometimes) frustration I have with this board is that listeners are often not critical enough.  A collector might want all of Thelonious Monk's recordings, but are they all really equally good?  Critical listening can establish "this recording date is better than that recording date, and here's why."  And it's interesting to read why, because only in that way can I get a sense of what someone else hears (as well as helping me to better articulate what I hear).  It would be useful to establish a guidepost, as in "The 5 Best Thelonious Monk Recording Dates," to truly force a critical evaluation of why and how one date is better than another.  I think this would enable us all to be better listeners, or at least to better understand how different people hear differently.

 

Being critical is a dicey thing -- especially on a board like this one.  I'm neither a musician nor a critic; I'm just a guy who loves listening to music. So I'm always much more comfortable talking about music that I enjoy. Ironically, by focusing on my own subjective experience I'm able to be MORE objective -- because that subjective enjoyment is an incontrovertible fact.  And that subjective part -- the "inner experience" is what's most valuable to me. Honestly, more often than not, I'm not particularly concerned about the "outwardly objective" aspects of music. (Perhaps this is due to my lack of training. Most of the time, I can't articulate in musicological terms what I'm hearing. But I know what I'm feeling!)

So I guess, given those preconceptions, that I'd love to see others' lists of their five FAVORITE Thelonious Monk recordings.  But I'd be very wary of any list that claimed to be the "BEST" of anything.

Bringing it back to OP: I don't hate his music. Sometimes I enjoy hearing the way he plays. At times, there's something impressively athletic about it. His power is -- occasionally -- marvelous. But I also agree with others that his almighty proficiency can (often?) be an impediment to musical expression. But I know that there are many other folks who LOVE his music. And they likely love the very thing that might be turning me off. (I'm thinking of OP's biographer Gene Lees, for instance.) And why would I want to tell him (or anyone?), "Stop enjoying that. It's no good. Look at it, hear it like I do." That doesn't interest me.

Edited September 4, 2015 by HutchFan

[mjzee]

All good points.

[JSngry]

 

 And why would I want to tell him (or anyone?), "Stop enjoying that. It's no good. Look at it, hear it like I do." That doesn't interest me.

No, that's wrong, you're right about that.

OTOH, I never feel particularly bad about requesting that masturbation be kept private, you know, if you're gonna do that, take it to your room, or at least over in the bushes where no one will see you.

Masturbation porn, same thing, y'all want to watch that, cool, just take it someplace else, please.

I'm not talking about just talking about masturbation, that's fine, or masturbation porn, conversate away,  just the actual experience itself. I don't need to be in the room while that's going on, that's all.