Oscar Peterson album for those who don't like much OP

[Larry Kart]

http://www.amazon.com/Tenderly-Oscar-Peterson-Trio/dp/B004YFB9LQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1440706834&sr=1-2&keywords=oscar+peterson+just+a+memory

In the vein of the Stratford Shakesperean Festival and Concertgebouw albums from the same period, when OP's arguably mechanical exuberance was usefully channeled and more or less carbonated by the trio's tight charts and routines. I thought this live concert album might be good, and so far it is. There's another on the same label from the same 1958 Vancouver concert, but it has versions of some of the same tunes,

Edited August 27, 2015 by Larry Kart

[JSngry]

Best figurative use of "carbonated" I think I've ever encountered.

Not gonna get me to buy the record, but it sure makes imagining it a lot more fun!

[danasgoodstuff]

So that was the problem, he lost his fiz...

 

[jlhoots]

I've always liked the Stratford album.

[Larry Kart]

Don't know where it can be found -- it's not in his book "Musings," where I thought it would be (maybe it was a set of latter-day liner notes?) -- but Gunther Schuller wrote a very enthusiastic, detailed piece about the Peterson Trio of the Stratford-Concertgebouw vintage, focusing IIRC on how OP's charts and routines, plus his sheer keyboard forcefulness, made the group into a kind of mini-big band, and thus gave zest and point to OP's solo work by channeling, showcasing, and yes, carbonating it.

[JSngry]

 

[AllenLowe]

this is bizarre;  because it is 3:45 AM and I just woke from a major and anxiety-inducing dream which ended with me telling off a guy, who had praised OP,  about how Oscar Peterson was the most incompetent jazz pianist ever; which was followed by my waking up with my eyes wide open and me unable to get back to sleep.

there was more to the dream but this was the big ending - my denunciation of OP.

now I come downstairs, turn on my laptop and see this first thing.....very strange and somewhat disturbing (but not as disturbing as the effect OP's playing appears to have on my psyche)....

 

Edited August 28, 2015 by AllenLowe

[Ted O'Reilly]

Over-cooked the soufflé a bit here, haven't you, Allen?  I understand how one could not like Oscar (I do, and thin he could be a terrific accompanist), but "Oscar Peterson was the most incompetent jazz pianist ever"?  Really?

[Peter Friedman]

Ted, you have to understand that Allen "hates" O.P.

As you said, one may not be an O.P. fan, but Allen, for some peculiar reason, become irrational in his comments about Oscar. Personally, I have always enjoyed Oscar's playing. While I would not call him

one of my favorite jazz piano players, he has made many recordings that I very much like.

 

[Ted O'Reilly]

Ted, you have to understand that Allen "hates" O.P.

As you said, one may not be an O.P. fan, but Allen, for some peculiar reason, become irrational in his comments about Oscar. Personally, I have always enjoyed Oscar's playing. While I would not call him

one of my favorite jazz piano players, he has made many recordings that I very much like.

 

Peter, personal feelings certainly enter into it, and over the years (as a Torontonian, where OP lived) I had some interactions with him, and found Oscar to be a really nice man, so that likely colours my opinion of him, but I liked his playing long before I met him.  I might like Allen, too, should I meet him, even though he doesn't like OP....

And while I think of it, there's an OP release that came out many years after its recording which I've enjoyed, "The Oscar Peterson Trio at Zardi's", with The Trio (Ray and Herb) at a Hollywood club in 1995 (Pablo 2PACD-2620-118-2).  The piano's out of tune, though not horribly, and the band swings, quite wonderfully.  I think it's up there with the Stratford and Concertgebouw albums, and toss in On The Town, too...

[AllenLowe]

well, it's really post-rational; but my hatred for OP's work (and I do have to admit it really is hatred) is because I am so completely offended by his playing. It's like....well, to my ears and taste, fake, shallow, superficial, predictable, glib, repetitive; and it struck me that way when I was 14 years old and a friend played me the LP of OP playing West Side Story. And until I read what Miles said about him, I thought maybe it was just me.  But he is offensive to my sensibilities. On so many levels; I mean, I can play a blues on the piano that sounds like OP, and then I can play a blues on the piano that's better than OP; this alone should tell us that something is horribly wrong.

And btw, Billie Holiday didn't like his playing, either. And neither did just about every old bebopper I knew in the '70s, some on the famous side.

Edited August 28, 2015 by AllenLowe

[king ubu]

@Larry: sorry if I should know ... but do you like OP or not? Is this just one album you stumbled over by chance and seem to like while you wouldn't know several dozens of others and thus - thread title triggers this question - wouldn't really know which of them might suit tastes of those that don't like OP best?

The ones that came to my mind upon reading the thread title on the board's homepage were the two on MPS with George Mraz and Ray Price ("Walking the Line", "Another Day", rec. 1970). Not sure who this Ray Price was, never yet investigate, but that trio was great, alas shortlived. Maybe also "Tristeza on Piano", another one on MPS with Sam Jones and Bobby rimshot Durham (also rec. 1970). Those MPS albums are a fine bunch and come in stellar sound (I know the Most Promising Sound reissues by Universal Germany or whoever really produced them).

To me, the trio with Ellis/Brown remained mostly impenetrable. Only when I found access to OP's music (via the Brown/Thigpen and Kessel/Brown trios), I started to really dig the Ellis/Brown trio (and somehow I still prefer the Kessel/Brown edition, guess Kessel was the more imaginative guitar player, all in all).

[Larry Kart]

@Larry: sorry if I should know ... but do you like OP or not? Is this just one album you stumbled over by chance and seem to like while you wouldn't know several dozens of others and thus - thread title triggers this question - wouldn't really know which of them might suit tastes of those that don't like OP best?

The ones that came to my mind upon reading the thread title on the board's homepage were the two on MPS with George Mraz and Ray Price ("Walking the Line", "Another Day", rec. 1970). Not sure who this Ray Price was, never yet investigate, but that trio was great, alas shortlived. Maybe also "Tristeza on Piano", another one on MPS with Sam Jones and Bobby rimshot Durham (also rec. 1970). Those MPS albums are a fine bunch and come in stellar sound (I know the Most Promising Sound reissues by Universal Germany or whoever really produced them).

To me, the trio with Ellis/Brown remained mostly impenetrable. Only when I found access to OP's music (via the Brown/Thigpen and Kessel/Brown trios), I started to really dig the Ellis/Brown trio (and somehow I still prefer the Kessel/Brown edition, guess Kessel was the more imaginative guitar player, all in all).

No, I don't like OP by and large, but for me there are exceptions -- for example, the trio with Ellis, with its neo-big band routines on the Stratford and Concertgebouw albums in particular and the Granz album of Basie material. Peterson himself as a soloist, except when he's channeled by those routines, I usually find mechanical and marked by faux bluesiness -- for me, chunks of too many OP solos, once things get rolling, sound like chunks of most every other OP solo; the recurrence of favorite figures is deadening and his much vaunted swing I often find to be instead grinding  and airless. Finally, while there are albums where he energizes other players as an accompanist, the Ellis-Brown trio behind Getz for one, too often (again for me) his comping is leaden, for all its surface energy. A good example is the Harry Edison album "Gee Baby, Ain't I Good To You," which has the same front line, Edison and Ben Webster, that was buoyed to the skies on the album "Sweets" by the rhythm section of Jimmy Rowles, Barney Kessel, Joe Mondragon, and Alvin Stoller. On "Gee Baby" an OP-led rhythm section (with Ray Brown in for Mondragon, but otherwise the same as on "Sweets") virtually sinks the ship. My recollection is that some of the work that OP did for MPS had a different, more Tatumesque flavor and had its moments. I do keep peeking into OP land, though, in the hopes of finding some OP I like, and the album I mentioned in my first post I do like.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Larry Kart

[Chuck Nessa]

Sometimes OP drives me nuts, other times he is ok.

"Sometimes you feel like a nut, other times you don't."

When NHOP introduced me to him, he was a prince.

[king ubu]

@Larry: sorry if I should know ... but do you like OP or not? Is this just one album you stumbled over by chance and seem to like while you wouldn't know several dozens of others and thus - thread title triggers this question - wouldn't really know which of them might suit tastes of those that don't like OP best?

The ones that came to my mind upon reading the thread title on the board's homepage were the two on MPS with George Mraz and Ray Price ("Walking the Line", "Another Day", rec. 1970). Not sure who this Ray Price was, never yet investigate, but that trio was great, alas shortlived. Maybe also "Tristeza on Piano", another one on MPS with Sam Jones and Bobby rimshot Durham (also rec. 1970). Those MPS albums are a fine bunch and come in stellar sound (I know the Most Promising Sound reissues by Universal Germany or whoever really produced them).

To me, the trio with Ellis/Brown remained mostly impenetrable. Only when I found access to OP's music (via the Brown/Thigpen and Kessel/Brown trios), I started to really dig the Ellis/Brown trio (and somehow I still prefer the Kessel/Brown edition, guess Kessel was the more imaginative guitar player, all in all).

No, I don't like OP by and large, but for me there are exceptions -- for example, the trio with Ellis, with its neo-big band routines on the Stratford and Concertgebouw albums in particular and the Granz album of Basie material. Peterson himself as a soloist, except when he's channeled by those routines, I usually find mechanical and marked by faux bluesiness -- for me, chunks of too many OP solos, once things get rolling, sound like chunks of most every other OP solo; the recurrence of favorite figures is deadening and his much vaunted swing I often find to be instead grinding  and airless. Finally, while there are albums where he energizes other players as an accompanist, the Ellis-Brown trio behind Getz for one, too often (again for me) his comping is leaden, for all its surface energy. A good example is the Harry Edison album "Gee Baby, Ain't I Good To You," which has the same front line, Edison and Ben Webster, that was buoyed to the skies on the album "Sweets" by the rhythm section of Jimmy Rowles, Barney Kessel, Joe Mondragon, and Alvin Stoller. On "Gee Baby" an OP-led rhythm section (with Ray Brown in for Mondragon, but otherwise the same as on "Sweets") virtually sinks the ship. My recollection is that some of the work that OP did for MPS had a different, more Tatumesque flavor and had its moments. I do keep peeking into OP land, though, in the hopes of finding some OP I like, and the album I mentioned in my first post I do like.

Thanks for expanding! Can't even say why, or rather what made me make peace with OP, but some day things just felt differently from before, but I can relate from my own past reactions to what you write.

Regarding the two Harry Edison albums, I easily agree - "Sweets" is wonderful and Rowles should have been picked as an accompanist far more often anyways, back then (love his work on the Webster/Mulligan sessions, the two disc set is really something!)

[AllenLowe]

the key to understanding what's wrong with OP is found in the realization that I had while watching a program one night on Educational TV with Peterson and Andre Previn. They did a piano duet, and could not be told apart.

Edited August 28, 2015 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

the key to understanding what's wrong with OP is found in the realization that I had while watching a program one night on Educational TV with Peterson and Andre Previn. They did a piano duet, and could not be told apart.

I think it might be a Maine / Canada rivalry.

[Peter Friedman]

I have to take Miles comments about Oscar with a very large grain of salt. Miles also made negative comments about Duke Jordan and Jackie McLean among others,  which tells me his judgement is greatly flawed. As I recall, he was not a big fan of Hank Mobley either.

I seriously wonder if the many top level musicians who Peterson has played with  really do agree with Allen. I am thinking of players such as Milt Jackson, Roy Eldridge, Coleman Hawkins, Dizzy Gillespie, Clark Terry, Lionel Hampton, Buddy DeFranco, Stan Getz, Ray Brown, NHOP, and numerous others? Somehow I seriously doubt that most of them would share Allen's opinion.

But whether they do or do not, musical opinions are personal. Allen is certainly entitled to "hate" OP, and there are many who disagree. So be it.

[Chuck Nessa]

On the other hand, How many of those folks wanted to take the chance of being dropped from the Verve/Pablo bandwagon. Money does wonders to adapt opinions.

[JSngry]

Who's down with O^scarP^eterson'sP^laying?

[John Tapscott]

Ted, you have to understand that Allen "hates" O.P.

As you said, one may not be an O.P. fan, but Allen, for some peculiar reason, become irrational in his comments about Oscar. Personally, I have always enjoyed Oscar's playing. While I would not call him

one of my favorite jazz piano players, he has made many recordings that I very much like.

 

I share Peter's opinion. IMHO some of Oscar's most enjoyable playing came after he recovered (actually he never really recovered ) from the devastating stroke he suffered in '93. It basically robbed him of most of the use of his left hand. And in his post stroke playing  there is very little glibness or flashiness, just an artist struggling with his limitations, adjusting to the new reality and emerging triumphantly.  Oscar's playing after he got back to it sometime in '94 is to me the mark of a real artist, going deep, not relying on technique so much but his innate musicality which of course, was there all along, but sometimes masked by his overwhelming facility.

Edited August 29, 2015 by John Tapscott

[JSngry]

I'll give him this - his defiance of all his critics by seemingly going ahead and doubling down on everything for which he was criticized speaks to a certain personal integrity that I respect in an almost inverse proportion to that which I can muster for its musical integrity (imo, ymmv, etc). It's as if he decided that ok, haters gonna hate, let me please them by giving them even more to hate, like, hey, fuck ALL y'all, I'm Oscar Motherfucking Peterson and there's not a DAMN thing ANY y'all can do about it.

So...Oscar Peterson as Polite Canadian Gangsta Of Jazz Piano Chops, perhaps not the first thing that comes to mind in the Arena Of Popular Perception, but...what other explanation is there?

[AllenLowe]

but Miles, Peter, was so on target with Peterson; it was an interview with Nat Hentoff in the old Jazz Review.

though my favorite remark about OP was (I think) made by Francis Davis, to the effect that "what strikes one about Oscar Peterson is not how 'easy' he makes it all sound, but rather how it all sounds equally difficult."

though I do hold Larry responsible for waking me up at 3:45 in the morning.

Edited August 29, 2015 by AllenLowe

[gmonahan]

It's always interesting to revisit the love/hate OP theme.  Can Wynton be far behind?

 

 

gregmo

[mjzee]

I find it fascinating to read people articulating what they hear in OP's playing - the analysis of the sequence of notes and what they mean.  There is an area of listening where we're truly solitary; I'll never really know what other people hear, how it affects them, what they make of it.  It's especially useful (for me, anyway) when the discussion is about a flawed musician such as OP.  Why do some people enjoy his playing and others react so angrily to it?  What makes one performance more musically valid to another?  I find the explication by posters special, and look forward to this discussion continuing.

BTW, I had a similar reaction this week to listening for the first time to an album by Monty Alexander, "Montreux Alexander."  I truly disliked it; I thought he was playing nothing.  Yet other people really like him.  It's so interesting.

Edited August 29, 2015 by mjzee