Desmond/Konitz

[uli]

remember having read some very negative comments by Konitz on Braxton  but don't remember any details. the only thing i could find was Konitz referencing the incident

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=pc4CsgVHLw0C&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=lee+konitz+on+anthony+braxton&source=bl&ots=g64JCRapdo&sig=q5zouZsWvZDcffWSy9jNPtgtsP0&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAmoVChMIy8H-tJe4xwIVQnySCh1bmwB4#v=onepage&q=lee konitz on anthony braxton&f=false

[Joe]

Braxton, of course. I recall something similar now. And Roger has always had big, big ears.

Will Vinson's name I know, but his playing, I confess, I don't. Thanks for the tip.

And maybe -- maybe -- I hear just a touch of "the Desmond scoop" in Eric Kloss' alto playing.

Edit: and, then again, when I think of Desmond's articulation and his propensity to stay in his horn's upper registers, I can't help but wonder if he wasn't paying very close attention to the clarinet players in his formative years.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Joe

[JSngry]

Don't remember if Joe Goldberg was quoting or observing, but I do recall him pointing out that a primary influence on/starting point for  Desmond's sound was Lester Young's clarinet playing.

And, yes, pretty sure that if he had classical training that he would have started on clarinet, that was just how it was done, and often still is. Pedagogical Imperative/Law, start on clarinet.  Which would go a ways towards explaining his comfort in the altissimo register (Roger says that Desmond says he got it from Jimmy Dorsey, but also consider Illinois Jacquet's saying that how he got into the "squealing" thing was to start using clarinet fingerings on the tenor, which would not be at all unusual, physics of instruments, etc.).

With all that, though, it should be noted that Desmond's tone was so even across all registers, that with his emphasis ho the higher partials the sound, it was only when he wanted to make a point that he was playing the low/lower middle registers of the horn that you heard it as such. The arcs of his best lines go as far down as they do up, but you don't hear it as anything other than the same sound/tone, usually. That's the mark of a really developed/refined embouchure/air support/etc method of tonal production, to have that type of control over the entire range of the horn.

[danasgoodstuff]

Perry Robinson said that I said sounded like Desmond, but I said no I was more into Konitz, but then he only heard me once and I was just being an idiot, so....

[king ubu]

 

Regarding early Columbia, one track I've always been particularly fond of because of Desmond is "Audrey" on the album "Brubeck Time" (rec. Oct 1954).

I've always liked his solos on "Balcony Rock", where he shows he could play the blues (though I can't think of any other examples)  and Le Souk, where he goes East a few years before Miles and Coltrane did. Both on Jazz Goes to College. 

Well, there's of course some fabulous blues playing on "Blue Rondo à la Turk", too

But yes, "Balcony Rock" is pretty nice indeed!

[ctuck1]

I listened to the early Brubeck albums "real time" - my father used to tie me to the chair at age 6.  So it's tough for me to be clinical about Desmond. And, i can't think about him without Brubeck -  it's a package deal.  Sixty years ago Desmond sounded so fresh, he swung a little and when he was playing, I didn't have to listen to the piano player doing all the frantic locked-hands chording that goes nowhere.  

 

[ghost of miles]

Braxton sings Desmond's praises in Graham Lock's Forces In Motion, iirc.  I also seem to remember reading that Desmond really, really did not care for Joe Morello's presence in the Brubeck Quartet and nearly quit over it--perhaps that accounts in part for the difference, Jim?

Ironically enough, given this discussion, we're airing a Night Lights show devoted to Desmond's post-Brubeck work (though it does include one of the 1975 duets with DB) this week.  It's already archived for online listening:  After Brubeck: Paul Desmond 1968-1977

A quote from Stuart Nicholson about Desmond's solo on on "Wendy" from the Live record with guitarist Ed Bickert, who seemed to have an inspirational effect on PD:

"It is assembled in a way similar to constructing a house of cards. Each fragile phrase is laid out, one on top of the other, the melodic continuity of his ideas wholly dependent on the relationship of what has preceded it. It creates a beguiling tension in that the further his solo progresses, the greater the chance that the next card he lays might bring the whole crashing to the ground. It never happens, of course; instead he assembles a series of quietly beautiful ideas that are the essence of his art."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2015 by ghost of miles

[JSngry]

Personally, that Nicholson quote could be applied to any solo where Desmond is really in his zone.

Also personally, the sides with the Bickert group have never really gotten to me, although they've certainly had their adherents since day one.

As for Morello, Goldberg pretty strongly hits at some real, deep friction there.

Found a cheap, used copy of Brubeck's Time Changes last week, listened to it today. None of it sounds like Desmond needed to be there, and none of it sounds like Desmond really thought otherwise. Although to be fair to all, the rest of the band seems to feel the same way as well, and don't let it stop them. The end result of the trio sides is like some acoustic proto-fusion band with Paul Desmond sitting in. And the orchestral thing...whoa, Herculeanly Brubeckian..as much as I'm been wanting to brave the world of post-Quartet orchestal Brubeck (available, it seems, semi-widely at really low prices), this was enough to put the brakes on all of that, like, less than halfway through. Not "bad" per se, just...enough already, Dave. Quirky and indefatigable has its charms, but it also has its limits, ok?

And the CD uses the tired phrase "witty and urbane" to preface the name "Paul Desmond", and I'm like, enough with the "witty and urbane" shit, ok? If that's all the guy brought to the table, the yes, I will have some cheese with this whine, thanks. What matters more to me is not the end "effect", but the cause of it all - how does somebody who should by any reasonable expectation not make anything other than "witty and urbane" music get to a place where his best work is the antithesis of "witty and urbane", it's freakin' genius observing itself while it works, and the rest of his work like genius observing itself while it avoids itself?

I'm kinda like, fuck "witty and urbane", if that's all I want, I'll go look for some Jack Parr or some shit like that. Now I know some people wanna think, yeah, that's it, Paul Desmond, the Jack Paar of jazz, or something like that, but hmmmm...I'm not buying that, just not buying that. Too easy, too witty, too urbane. "Witty and urbane" is profoundly unaware of its limitations and celebrates its unawareness (or, perhaps, the unawareness it crates for itself so that it might seem aware). I think the last thing you can call the music of Paul Desmond, any of it, is unaware.

 

[medjuck]

I always found Desmond to be really the ultimate Jazz Middlebrow - smart but in veiled-conventional, middle class ways. In his person and his playing. The kind of intellectual that only a non-intellectual thinks is an intellectual.

I always thought of him as urbane rather than intellectual.  He sure as hell was more urbane than I was. 

[paul secor]

I've just always thought of Desmond as singing his own sweet (and thoughtful) song.

[Larry Kart]

Jack Paar was neither witty nor urbane; certainly not compared to (and I know this is not setting the bar that high) Steve Allen.  Paar was, however, on numerous occasions grossly  sentimental and self-aggrandizing. For witty and urbane one perhaps needs to go back in time to a figure not wholly comparable to Paar (because he was a comedian, not a talk show host), Fred Allen. Desmond was not unlike S.J. Perelman?

Edited August 21, 2015 by Larry Kart

[JSngry]

Perelman might work. There seems to have been a certain darkness to Perelman, and I think there's a darkness to Desmond as well, although maybe (and this is maybe Too Much Math For R&B), Perelman's darkness seems to have been about the world at large (there's a latter-day TV interview with him somewhere on YouTube that is almost uncomfortable in that regard), and Desmond's seems to, maybe, have been more about himself.

Point just being that maybe a lot of the sentiment for and against Desmond's playing is because of it's "lightness", like it's all happysunshinewhimsy, but the more I listen to it, the less I think that that's what it is, although it sure as hell sounds like that on the surface. Sounds more to me like a man who knew more than he let on, and who also knew that if he ever did let on, he would be uncomfortable with whoever/whatever embraced him in the aftermath, if in fact anybody would. Hardly a recipe for "happiness".

And let's not yet forget Joe Dodge: http://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2009/08/joe-dodge-drummer-as-time-keeper.html

[AllenLowe]

I tend to prefer Lenny Bruce. And the Marx Brothers.

but ultimately I just cannot separate the ideas from the sound, and Desmond just cannot hold my attention because of this. Apparently I am not in the majority about this; however, to compare a similar-sounding alto player (IIRC), I much prefer, as Larry mentioned, Richie Kamuca's alto recording of Bird tunes.

As for erudition, well, I think Desmond was witty and pithy, but that's not really enough for my ears and head.

[HutchFan]

 

And let's not yet forget Joe Dodge: http://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2009/08/joe-dodge-drummer-as-time-keeper.html

Thanks for the link to the info on Joe Dodge, Jim. Very interesting stuff.

[king ubu]

will Desmond be smoking that hose now or what?

[JSngry]

Also personally, the sides with the Bickert group have never really gotten to me, although they've certainly had their adherents since day one.

Upping this to revise...that comment was made only hearing the Horizon album. It never got to me enough to make be pursue the subsequent Artist House & Telarc releases from the same gig. and now, wanting to look into those things, I notice the AH album is OOP and has never been legitimately reissued on CD.

But have no fear, EuroMusiPorn to the rescue!

OMG, soooo much zonier (for my tastes) than the Horizon stuff, and not just on Desmond's part. I've long admired Ed Bickert, but never really felt the love, ok? It's not him, it's me. But here, yes, I feel it, I get it. And Desmond himself, some of the Horizon stuff felt a little coasty to me, not bad, and advanced age/health issues fully considered, but...what I've always hoped to hear in the Horizon album, I do hear on this one, so...not just me, necessarily, maybe not just me. Gears fully engaged AND advanced conditions, proof that the latter was not at this point in any way excusing the former.

I guess the AH material was a "runner up" in the original submission because the sound quality is not as good, and yes, there's a slight hint of that here and there, but really, not enough to matter even a little. And the music is at a higher level often enough to, you know, screw "sound quality", it's MUSIC quality that matters.

Anyway, EuroMusiPorn says thank you very much you heartless hypocrites, to which all I can say is damn right, and yes, you're welcome very much, actually, you did what you were paid for, met expectations, strictly business, ok, you want love, buy me a Cadillac car and a diamond ring this Christmas so I can light up like a Christmas tree with the good music on my radio. You know, be the pro you aspire to be.

Now - who among us has heard the Telarc material, and how would you rate it?

[mjzee]

 

Now - who among us has heard the Telarc material, and how would you rate it?

I have the Telarc disc, "Like Someone In Love."  It's of a piece with the other titles from this gig.  Just lovely stuff.  If memory serves me correctly, sound quality may be a shade not as good, but don't know why.  This group produced a vision, a sound, shimmering.  I think of it in the same vein as the Jim Hall Live album on Horizon; it just puts you in a state.  Look at the titles: Just Squeeze Me, Tangerine, Meditation, Nudges, Like Someone In Love, and (to send them home) Things Ain't What They Used To Be.  Just Squeeze Me is especially lovely.

[Jim R]

I was never sure why, but I always listened least frequently to the Horizon album.  I was just refreshing my memory a bit, and realized that the Horizon album is much brighter/treblier (let me know if that's a word or not) than the others.  Maybe too much so (?).  I dunno.  That right there could be a factor, but I just compared the versions of "Things Ain't What They Used To Be" from Telarc and Horizon, and I strongly prefer the Telarc for the groove and level of inspiration that seemed to be going on.  I also listened to "Just Squeeze Me" from the Telarc album, and it's also very inspired.  Desmond and Bickert were really doing some nice pushing and pulling (hopefully not on Desmond's chest hair, but let's not even think about that and just move on).

I haven't heard the AH album for quite awhile.  You just made me realize that I never transferred it to mp3 (I think I still have a MiniDisc of it around here somewhere).  Anyway, I always liked that recording also.  A LOT.

The album that got my attention to begin with in regard to the Desmond/Bickert thing was "Pure Desmond" on CTI, btw.

There's also a bootleg floating around of a 1976 concert in Edmonton, which ain't bad at all.

Some data, for reference, just because...

 

1975

Paul Desmond Quartet

Paul Desmond (alto saxophone) Ed Bickert (guitar) Don Thompson (bass) Jerry Fuller (drums)

"Bourbon Street Jazz Club", Toronto, Ontario, Canada, March 29, 1975

	Just Squeeze Me	Telarc CD-83319
	Tangerine	-
	Meditation	-
	Nuages	-
	Like Someone In Love	-
	Things Ain't What They Used To Be	-

* Telarc CD-83319   Paul Desmond - Like Someone In Love

 

 

Paul Desmond Quartet

Paul Desmond (alto saxophone) Ed Bickert (guitar) Don Thompson (bass) Jerry Fuller (drums)

"Bourbon Street Jazz Club", Toronto, Ontario, Canada, October 25, 27, 30 & 31 & November 1, 1975

	Wendy	A&M/Horizon SP-850
	Wave	-
	Things Ain't What They Used To Be	-
	Nancy	-
	Manha De Carnaval	-
	Here's That Rainy Day	-
	My Funny Valentine	-
	Take Five	-
	Line For Lyons	Horizon unissued

* A&M/Horizon SP-850   The Paul Desmond Quartet Live

 

 

Paul Desmond Quartet

same personnel

"Bourbon Street Jazz Club", Toronto, Ontario, Canada, October, 1975

	Too Marvelous For Words	Artists House AH 2
	Audrey	-
	Line For Lyons	-
	When Sunny Gets Blue	-
	Darn That Dream	-

* Artists House AH 2, AH 9402   Paul Desmond

[aka "Audrey", on EuroMusiPorn]

I have the Telarc disc, "Like Someone In Love."  It's of a piece with the other titles from this gig.

It wasn't all one gig.  The Telarc recording was seven months prior to the other two.  Same club, yes. 

Edited September 11, 2015 by Jim R

[JSngry]

Just ordered the Telarc. Nobody's saying that it's a "leftovers" plate,  so, yeah.

Also find it interesting that the AH did see digital release after all. was it only as a mini-disc? No matter, now we know where our Paid Servicers Of Those In Need got such a nice, clean copy.

It's funny...a month or two ago, I figured I was through with Paul Desmond, Now I hear him, when he's not coasting, as really a "free" player, not for what he plays but for how he plays it. Anybody who improvises should want to have that kind of an ability to maintain and sustain their responses to their impulses. "Intellectual" vs "Visceral", ""Sound" vs "Line", yeah, it breaks down like that, but it all has to do with feeling and then doing as clearly as possible, no distance between inspiration and result. How Desmond did it in his voice...that's what I love hearing anybody do in theirs.

[Jim R]

I know (and never knew, frankly) nothing about pre-recorded MiniDiscs.  All of mine were blanks that I used like cassettes (except that they could be edited, and had better sound, and were more portable, and more durable, and easier to use, and...).  I had the AH album on vinyl, and recorded my MD from that.  Never knew about the "Audrey" disc until today (I don't really shop for CD's anymore).

I hope and expect that you'll enjoy the Telarc recording.

[JSngry]

Ah, I see...but wasn't there some kind of "mini" CD format, though, early on? Maybe for singles, something like that? I though maybe AH had done something like that, they were always "quirky" about how the did things, god bless'em.

Looking forward to the Telarc. Getting to the point where the only way to get "new" Desmond is to get the Brubeck Studio box (and even then, I don't need but some of it, it's not like I'd never bought any Brubeck records until last month  ) and whatever bootlegs are out there.

[jeffcrom]

Ah, I see...but wasn't there some kind of "mini" CD format, though, early on? Maybe for singles, something like that? I though maybe AH had done something like that, they were always "quirky" about how the did things, god bless'em.

I don't think AH issued any, but several labels experimented with 3-inch "EP" CDs. I've got half a dozen: one by Louis Armstrong and two by Bo Diddley on MCA, Joe Williams and the Timeless Allstars on Delos, and one by the great rock/fusion band the Dixie Dregs. The Dregs CD was a limited edition promo produced by Ensoniq keyboards to promote their new (1988) keyboards. It includes a five-inch adapter, but check your CD player - it might just have a three-inch "slot" in the CD tray.

[medjuck]

Ah, I see...but wasn't there some kind of "mini" CD format, though, early on? Maybe for singles, something like that? I though maybe AH had done something like that, they were always "quirky" about how the did things, god bless'em.

I don't think AH issued any, but several labels experimented with 3-inch "EP" CDs. I've got half a dozen: one by Louis Armstrong and two by Bo Diddley on MCA, Joe Williams and the Timeless Allstars on Delos, and one by the great rock/fusion band the Dixie Dregs. The Dregs CD was a limited edition promo produced by Ensoniq keyboards to promote their new (1988) keyboards. It includes a five-inch adapter, but check your CD player - it might just have a three-inch "slot" in the CD tray.

I've got one of Sting with the Gil Evans band (the reason I got it), one Frank Zappa 3 inch and one with 3 Billie Holiday songs that came with an Italian book.  The problem is that I don't think I have any cd players with a 3 inch indention in the tray anymore. 

[king ubu]

Quite sure I once saw some pre-recorded MDs, but I wouldn't bet my ass on it ...

And I guess I ought to shop for the AH and tje Telarc, then - always thought the A&M was fine. And yeah, the CTI too!

[JSngry]

will Desmond be smoking that hose now or what?