WTF Bill Cosby!!!

[jazzbo]

Amen.

Man, I feel sorry for all those women, over all that time. Whatever happens with Bill. . . what does it do for them . . . .

[JSngry]

I want to know who today's "Bill Cosby"s are, and how long it will take them to face their accusers in a court of law.

[GA Russell]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I want to know who today's "Bill Cosby"s are, and how long it will take them to face their accusers in a court of law.

I read a year or so ago that a former child actor, I think named Cory something, said that there was a great deal of child molestation going on when he was a star.  I gathered that he was talking about boys.

[JSngry]

Has Bill Cosby been accused of child molestation too?

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, GA Russell said:

I read a year or so ago that a former child actor, I think named Cory something, said that there was a great deal of child molestation going on when he was a star.  I gathered that he was talking about boys.

That would be both the late Corey Haim and Corey Feldman:

http://hollywoodlife.com/2013/10/21/corey-feldman-sexual-abuse-childhood-star-new-book/

[Tim McG]

On 1/1/2016 at 4:58 AM, erwbol said:

Tim, I'm sure if any of your 55 one night stands considered your brief encounter rape at least one of them would have come forward by now. I can only conclude you left many a satisfied "customer" in your wake.

Or maybe, just maybe, there is much more to this than what his accusers allege? 

I'm not saying the man is a saint by any means. But c'mon. Be realistic. If  fondling a woman's breasts on a date is now to be considered sexual assault, then no man is safe if he attempts anything  more than just a kiss good-night.

The drugging is a fair issue. However, in the 70s, the drug culture was the norm,  not the exception. At some point we need to consider a choice was made in every case. Was it all Cosby's fault? Well, only if you think women are incapable of making rational decisions on their own. Sorry. It takes two to tango.

 

10 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

We don't know for a fact that the women were fully aware of what they were taking, and why he was giving it to them. That's where the entire case becomes problematic. If his attorney can prove that they did indeed fully understand the ramifications, then we eventually see The Cosby Show back on Nick At Nite in the future. 

If the prosecutor can prove that they had no idea what they were taking, or had been lied to about what it was, then it's game over, Billy. 

But what we do know is all of them made a conscious choice to go with Cosby alone. We also know they chose to drink what he was offering. 

Am I saying Cosby is completely innocent? Not at all. But as was the case with Kobe Bryant years ago, the woman made a choice to accompany him to his hotel room. ALONE. What could possibly be the expectation....a  game of Monopoly? Both Cosby and Bryant are married men. What might that suggest about a woman who would accompany them to his room alone? Just innocent flowers of humanity? Or could it be an attempt to extort money? Hopes of fame? Personal favors? There is much more to all of this than a drug induced sexual dalliance.

Further, is it at all possible some of this stuff is made up? I mean, one woman claims she can't breath because of Cosby. Um...really? Is it further possible getting money or media attention is the motive? Seems to me we are WAY too quick to foist blame rather than consider all the possibilities.

 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tim McG

[Tim McG]

And Soul Station, I am summarily surprised at you.

I thought you were an advocate for fairness, not a person who assumes the worst in people.

The others I expect it from, but I thought better of you.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tim McG

[Dan Gould]

1.  Nobody's accused Cos of unwanted fondling.  So that's a B.S. red-herring/misdirection.

2.  Many of the accusers, including the one that forms the basis of the criminal charges, were women who were young enough to be his daughter if not granddaughter. They looked up to him and believed he was acting as a mentor to help them in their acting or modeling career. It's an appalling assertion that they should have "known what they were getting into" just because they willingly went to his house.

3. For the very last time, everybody who has accused Cosby of drugging them have made it clear that they had no knowledge of what they were given, in no way consented to being drugged, and say that they became disoriented/weak/unable to physically resist after being given whatever Cos cooked up for them.

The fact that you don't see this as sickening is on you.

PS - Welcome to the SS1 Ignore list!  I was getting lonely.

[Scott Dolan]

The accusers saying they had no knowledge and gave no consent makes it the truth just as much as Cosby saying they did makes it true. 

That is why we have a legal system. 

Let's not put the cart before the horse. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Scott Dolan

[Tim McG]

2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

1.  Nobody's accused Cos of unwanted fondling.  So that's a B.S. red-herring/misdirection.

2.  Many of the accusers, including the one that forms the basis of the criminal charges, were women who were young enough to be his daughter if not granddaughter. They looked up to him and believed he was acting as a mentor to help them in their acting or modeling career. It's an appalling assertion that they should have "known what they were getting into" just because they willingly went to his house.

3. For the very last time, everybody who has accused Cosby of drugging them have made it clear that they had no knowledge of what they were given, in no way consented to being drugged, and say that they became disoriented/weak/unable to physically resist after being given whatever Cos cooked up for them.

The fact that you don't see this as sickening is on you.

PS - Welcome to the SS1 Ignore list!  I was getting lonely.

Make no mistake, Dan. I think Cosby is a complete dirtball...especially because he violated his wedding vows. That is unforgivable. I mean, can you imagine what his wife is going through? What an asshole this guy is. I am not defending the man at all. Instead, I am looking at the larger picture: What is the potential fallout for all men in a dating [or even a one night stand] relationship? I thank God I am married because I would never want to be out on the dating circuit these days. It's a friggin' minefield and, if some of the accusations stand, we better build larger prisons because we all are going to jail. Now, unless all those who hurled insults at me are celibate goody  two-shoes, they have tried to get a woman naked, too. 1st date, 2nd date...one nighter....what man hasn't tried his luck with the ladies? This case has far reaching ramifications, Dan. I seriously do not want to visit my son in jail because he tried to get from 1st base to Home Plate with a date.

As to fondling, that is the accusation, in part, made in the court case against him now, so it is a part of this issue. It has also been a part of earlier accusations.

As to his accusers, this is why I have such a problem with celebrity worship in this country. That "looking up" to an actor/comedian because of a TV role he played is pathetic. And I am not naive enough to think hundreds of other media stars haven't done what Cosby is accused of or worse to these doe-eyed women. I have counseled many girls and young ladies to be ever diligent in relationships. To NEVER put yourself in a position where you can be compromised sexually. These women did and it cost them dearly. But here's the deal: Why wait 40+ years after the fact to finally say something? Because of their silence, other women fell victim and were summarily treated in the same manner. That is what sends red flags up in my mind, Dan. Not all of these women are legit.

Knowing you are being drugged is a far different thing from willingly taking a drink from Cosby. Should he have spiked their drinks? Hell no.But here again, in the 70s spiking drinks was almost expected. You had to be very careful about what you consumed at parties because the "jungle juice" was often spiked with LSD or Quaaludes. I know for a fact this occurred and with more regularity than people want to admit. Is it wrong? Of course it is. But the drug culture of that time period was the normal way of things. I always drank canned or bottled beer or beer poured directly from the keg to protect myself. Regularly, I would pull girls aside and warn them of the potential of being drugged. I knew it was happening, we all did.

Then there is the matter of making a choice. I plainly see drugging a woman as the worst possible way to  have sex with her. Why you have to ask seems more than a bit odd given all I have posted here and over the years. But for me, the bottom line is the choice these women made to go alone with a married man. In my mind, that was a total screw-up on their part. Does that justify drugging drinks? No. And I think I have clearly made my case in that regard. The "consent" for sex was tacitly given when these women accompanied Cosby alone to a hotel room and before the drugs were administered or had taken effect.

And lastly, we as a society need to get past the erroneous and totally distorted ideology that rape is about sex. Rape is an act of violence and control not an act of sex. I get no means no, Dan. But when are we going to stop  labeling a piss poor attempt at "getting some" with assault? And if holding this opinion makes me a troll then I submit anybody with a contrarian view [Bonds was exonerated, BTW] on these boards is also a troll. Same goes with calling every sexual encounter rape. There is the the bullshit, Dan.

 

 

1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said:

The accusers saying they had no knowledge and gave no consent makes it the truth just as much as Cosby saying they did makes it true. 

That is why we have a legal system. 

Let's put the cart before the horse. 

I agree, Scott.

But it also saddens me how quickly people on this BBS hurl insult and accusations before thinking it all through.

Fair?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tim McG

[JSngry]

If it's true that this guy has been doing this all these years and didn't have a reputation of being a predator, I find that a little disheartening. Even if nobody had the guts to go public in the aftermath until decades alter, I'd like to think that there was a "grapevine" that put out the word "watch out for this guy, he's trouble".

Maybe it was a byproduct of the overall culture of the time, maybe nobody really wanted to believe it had happened to them, but by god people, look out for each other. My daughter's age group (the 25-ish zone) seems to be very much into looking out for each other when they have unwanted advances pushed on them past the point of the "can't blame a guy for trying" stage (which itself seems to be a shorter and shorter leash these days, and good for that as well).

That's why I want to know who today's "Bill Cosby"'s are. I would really hope that potential and real victims are talking within their own circles about who's trying what on whom, and making every effort to proceed accordingly. Problem is, there's always people who don't mind being used like that, and that only emboldens the predator, who has his belief that of course they want it even further reinforced. And there's always people who are convinced that they're different, that it won't happen to them.

What's done in the dark should come out in the day (that's a variant on an old folk saying about trying to hide your wrongdoing, not a statement of desire for yet more bedroom gossip). Shine that light wherever it needs to be shone, and don't take decades to get around to it!

[Dan Gould]

Tim, this:

"The "consent" for sex was tacitly given when these women accompanied Cosby alone to a hotel room and before the drugs were administered or had taken effect."

is bat-shit insane!

[mjazzg]

I'm so pleased someone pointed that out.

There is no such thing as assumed consent. Accompanying anyone to a hotel room is consent to do just that, no more.  Consent can be withdrawn at any stage and if done so should be seen as no more than a change of mind that is perfectly within the rights of the individual to do so.

and as for " But for me, the bottom line is the choice these women made to go alone with a married man. In my mind, that was a total screw-up on their part" I really fail to see how anyone's marital status really comes into this. So if he wasn't married it would've been completely different?

[Scott Dolan]

It's not assumed consent, but it's not a wise choice either. 

That said, we have no idea what conversation took place beforehand. 

It's somewhat safe assumption it wasn't, "let's go back to my room and watch The Flintstones!" 

[JSngry]

I don't know if I'd use the phrase "bat-shit insane", but...woefully un-nuanced, that one I would use. The notion of "tacitly given" consent for sex, leaves one asking many questions, not the least of which is - is this system of tacit agreement actually a universal agreement, or a unilateral assumption? Was the introduction and meeting set up with a mutually unambiguous expectation that she was there to fuck him and that he was there to help her career? Also, what kind of sexual activity might have there been a mutually consented to advance expectation of? Getting felt up a little? A handjob? A blow job? Intercourse with condom? Or here, let me knock you out and then fuck you however I see fit? Care for a bathrobe?

Really, the only truly tacitly assumed consent that holds up in any of these scenarios is that the "conversation would continue". Past that, it's assumptions and expectations and my limits vs your limits, presumably neither of which had been explicitly discussed beforehand.

 

[Tim McG]

OK. Perhaps tacit is the wrong word. But let's be honest here once. If a woman agrees to go with a man alone to his hotel room you can bet the ranch and as adults this is not an asexual circumstance by any means. Certain assumptions can and will be made that lend themselves to the possibility of a sexual encounter. I seriously do not know how any man would read it differently. Or, more to the point, how or why a woman would put herself in that position unless she had an inkling that this might turn sexual. I would call that bat-shit insane.

And, Jim, I feel the exact same way about my daughter.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tim McG

[JSngry]

The assumption that possibility guarantees outcome, or even assumes outcome is a depressingly unevolved one, which is not to say that it has not been, and to a large degree remains a prevalent one.

But really - if we keep the same attitudes, we only re-enforce the mindset, and in turn the behavior. We'll be perpetually reactive. Men will still be wondering why women such devils, and women why men are such beasts. Because we are, that's why. Perfection does not lie within us. Improvement through evolution, however, does. Let's just accept that as a given and then go about redirecting ourselves based on what is, not what is hoped for.

But as for the right now, yes, if I invite a woman to my room and she accepts, yes, I get a sense that the game is on. Butit is just that - a game, and any game needs to be played, and both players need to play it. To go from there to that I'm entitled to win the game or that consenting to play the game equates to a tacit forfeiting of it...no, no, and HELL no. And that it's fair game for me to use any weapon at my disposal to win this game, drugs, alcohol, guns, bathrobes, whatever, bump that one up to OH HELL NO.

Also - both parties have a responsibility to respect what game it is the other thinks the other might want to play and adjust accordingly  without rancor or malice. Believe it or not, flirting is not the same thing as inviting seduction. It might be the first step towards it, but it might also very well be an end unto itself. That's one of those things where it's only "impossible" to separate them until you tell yourself you can and should separate them, and then...just do it. Own your own damn self. it's surprisingly easy to be "stimulated" without becoming "aroused". If the private Bill Cosby was really the public Bill Cosby, he'd have known this.

Now having said all that..on an individual-by-individual basis, I would certainly be willing to consider the possibility that any these women had "ulterior motives" of their own. I have no problem allowing for that possibility. But just do the math - at some point, the ability to prove the same thing over and over and over and over yet again becomes less that a sure thing, and that applies to both Cosby and his accusers. Because, you know, nobody bats 1.000.

 

[Guy Berger]

This is some of the worst stuff I've read on this board for a long, long time.

[page]

Maybe men do come from Mars and women from Venus.... It is difficult to explain how the mind works and how we can interpret or misinterpet each other.

Happy New Year, guys. Sorry I've had, and am still not completely clear from, pc troubles.

I haven't read all of the replies fully, so please forgive me to jump to respond with a few "answers"/ points of view by a woman, that of my own.

"Why waited so long to come forward?" Shame, maybe? When something like that happens to you, the first thought/ thing to deal with is the shame, you'll want to forget it all. Did that really happen to me? Why do you think it is so hard to report such a crime. You don't want to believe it happened and you certainly do not want to share it with anyone else. When a woman is brave enough to come forward and does press charges which does not happen in a lot of cases, others can feel strengthened to do the same. That doesn't mean they really enjoy going into this since it will force them to tell things that are far from easy to talk about, let alone to get to be known by the public/everyone.

I'd find it not wise to go with someone to his hotelroom, no, however I've previously pointed out the position he had and that it could be that these women, or at least some could have felt intimidated in some way. Even when they did go with him, that doesn't mean he had a right to drug anyone or do anything they didn't want to. It seems to me normally he'd want her to have some pleasure too, instead of being out of it/sedated and not knowing/being concious to what would be happening.There are plastic dolls for that kind of thing. Sorry, getting a bit irritated here, I'm only human. I love The Flintstones btw. but I'd rather watch them at home.

Anyway, I just miss the female point of view around here, I suppose. I'm glad it is being looked at by people in court who have knowledge of what is legal and what is not. I only know the word "consent" is a word that isn't taught so much these days or doesn't seem to and I can certainly understand that being young, male or female, can bring insecurities about what is wise and what is not and even about what is expected of you. I say that with the experience of a teacher with pupils discovering their sexuality. Yes, I know, the women were not thát young, still the thought has crossed my mind he has/had major influence in the business he is in and beyond.

I've really enjoyed his work on television, so it is a disappointment really.

Btw he might get convicted, or not. Mind that those women will carry this experience the rest of their lives and they will have to deal with it and the influence it will have/ or has had on their later relationships. You don't want to underestimate that.
sincerely, page



 

Edited January 8, 2016 by page

[Tim McG]

56 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The assumption that possibility guarantees outcome, or even assumes outcome is a depressingly unevolved one, which is not to say that it has not been, and to a large degree remains one.

But really - if we keep the same attitudes, we only re-enforce the mindset, and in turn the behavior. We'll be perpetually reactive. Men will still be wondering why women such devils, and women why men are such beasts. Because we are, that's why. Perfection does not lie within us. Improvement through evolution, however, does. Let's just accept that as a given and then go about redirecting ourselves based on what is, not what is hoped for.

But as for the right now, yes, if I invite a woman to my room and she accepts, yes, I get a sense that the game is on. Butit is just that - a game, and any game needs to be played, and both players need to play it. To go from there to that I'm entitled to win the game or that consenting to play the game equates to a tacit forfeiting of it...no, no, and HELL no. And that it's fair game for me to use any weapon at my disposal to win this game, drugs, alcohol, guns, bathrobes, whatever, bump that one up to OH HELL NO.

Totally agree. But here again, we are just supposing. When it is a "live" game-on situation, if a woman accepts an invitation to go up to your hotel room, the assumption  is very real and has a very high percentage of coming to fruition. My use of the term "tacit" goes to an unspoken agreement between the two consenting adults that this situation most likely will turn sexual.

What bothers me in all this [aside from Cosby using drugs] is women should understand this about the "game". If they do not or will not they are either pretty damned naive or hoping against hope nothing will happen. It would be way different if they were headed to the local Strabucks or a restaurant of some sort. No beds. No privacy. No temptation to go beyond a simple conversation.

Hence my disdain for celebrity worship. They weren't going with Dr. Huxtable.  They were going with Bill Cosby.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tim McG

[page]

It seems I can't edit. Sorry, I forgot to add that women do blame themselves, at least in my experience; doubt themselves about what happened really.

[JSngry]

18 minutes ago, Tim McG said:

Totally agree. But here again, we are just supposing. When it is a "live" game-on situation, if a woman accepts an invitation to go up to your hotel room, the assumption  is very real and has a very high percentage of coming to fruition. My use of the term "tacit" goes to an unspoken agreement between the two consenting adults that this situation most likely will turn sexual.

 

I don't think that "most likely" is a particularly civilized assumption. Evolved adults should possess the ability to "test the waters" before committing to taking the plunge.

Have you ever thought that you might want to get next to a woman, and then reach a point in the proceeding where you said, hmmmm, maybe not? We all have, I'm sure, and then what happened? Have you ever been in such a situation and have a woman drug you and then get you hard and then mount you and ride you until she came? I mean, I know such things happen, but they are very, very rare.

So, of course you have the ability to disengage from a situation should you decide. A woman has the same ability, but when a man blocks that ability and continues with an unwelcome continuation, that is when it becomes rape. I won't blame anybody for "being there", but once there, there are still rules, hell, still laws.

[Tim McG]

22 minutes ago, page said:

Maybe men do come from Mars and women from Venus.... It is difficult to explain how the mind works and how we can interpret or misinterpet each other.

Happy New Year, guys. Sorry I've had, and am still not completely clear from, pc troubles.

I haven't read all of the replies fully, so please forgive me to jump to respond with a few "answers"/ points of view by a woman, that of my own.

"Why waited so long to come forward?" Shame, maybe? When something like that happens to you, the first thought/ thing to deal with is the shame, you'll want to forget it all. Did that really happen to me? Why do you think it is so hard to report such a crime. You don't want to believe it happened and you certainly do not want to share it with anyone else. When a woman is brave enough to come forward and does press charges which does not happen in a lot of cases, others can feel strengthened to do the same. That doesn't mean they really enjoy going into this since it will force them to tell things that are far from easy to talk about, let alone to get to be known by the public/everyone.

I'd find it not wise to go with someone to his hotelroom, no, however I've previously pointed out the position he had and that it could be that these women, or at least some could have felt intimidated in some way. Even when they did go with him, that doesn't mean he had a right to drug anyone or do anything they didn't. It seems to me normally he'd want her to have some pleasure too, instead of being out of it/sedated and not knowing/be concious to what would be happening.There are plastic dolls for that kind of thing. Sorry, getting a bit irritated here, I'm only human. I love The Flintstones btw. but I'd rather watch them at home.

Anyway, I just miss the female point of view around here, I suppose. I'm glad it is being looked at by people in court who have knowledge of what is legal and what is not. I only know the word "consent" is a word that isn't taught so much these days or doesn't seem to and I can certainly understand that being young, male or female, can bring insecurities about what is wise and what is not and even about what is expected of you. I say that with the experience of a teacher with pupils discovering their sexuality. Yes, I know, the women were not thát young, still the thought has crossed my mind he has/had major influence in the business he is in and beyond.

I've really enjoyed his work on television, so it is a disappointed really.

Btw he might get convicted, or not. Mind that those women will carry this experience the rest of their lives and they will have to deal with it and the influence it will have/ or has had on their later relationships. You don't want to underestimate that.
sincerely, page



 

Totally get that, Page. I have known several women [a couple relatives as well] who were victims of rape, spiked drinks then assaulted and those who were just plain taken advantage of by a man interested in only one thing: sex. Shame and guilt are huge emotional blocks for a woman victimized in this way. And you are right, these women do carry that violation for the rest of their lives. Sadly, I have had to be that guy trying to convince girls to come forward and bring the SOB to justice. It is not an easy thing and I sincerely hope you do not think I am making light of a horrible situation.

At the same time, waiting 40 years almost guarantees that rapist will rape again and by that time, what credible witnesses would there be to make a solid case to convict the guy? In cases such as these wherein a celebrity is accused, there are multiple levels of issues, concerns and blame. 

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I don't think that "most likely" is a particularly civilized assumption. Evolved adults should possess the ability to "test the waters" before committing to taking the plunge.

Have you ever thought that you might want to get next to a woman, and then reach a point in the proceeding where you said, hmmmm, maybe not? We all have, I'm sure, and then what happened? Have you ever been in such a situation and have a woman drug you and then get you hard and then mount you and ride you until she came? I mean, I know such things happen, but they are very, very rare.

So, of course you have the ability to disengage from a situation should you decide. A woman has the same ability, but when a man blocks that ability and continues with an unwelcome continuation, that is when it becomes rape. I won't blame anybody for "being there", but once there, there are still rules, hell, still laws.

Absolutely. Even as a married man I have been tempted and in several instances, shall we say, encouraged to take that leap into the "waters". I disengaged because I am a moral creature and would do nothing to hurt my wife like that. But here again, this whole notion that a sexual tryst is a one-way street is, quite frankly, ludicrous.

No means no. But a woman shouldn't be egging a guy on either unless she means "business."

 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tim McG

[JSngry]

11 minutes ago, page said:

It seems I can't edit. Sorry, I forgot to add that women do blame themselves, at least in my experience; doubt themselves about what happened really.

Nobody should feel guilty about the inability of another human to control their behavior. After-the-fact doubt is surely useful as a learning tool, but as a part of the permanent repertoire...I'm not a fan, myself. But that's an entirely personal process, ultimately.

Which is just to say that I'm a fan of not letting the bastards get you down.

[page]

I understand that and I agree it is a long time. I think I've told about my male colleague who was falsly accused before. We got strict rules about how to act around students from that to avoid situations that could be misinterpreted. People who are public figures are more vulnerable to this.
(replying to Tim here)

Edited January 8, 2016 by page