Ornette Coleman - RIP

[John L]

I keep reading about the altercation between Max Roach and Ornette in what was it, 1959 -- in various remembrances this week. Roach supposedly punched Ornette in the mouth, on the bandstand.

Forgive my ignorance, did they ever reconcile? Ever play together again?

Did Roach ever comment about Ornette in the years and decades later? Searches on-line come up with a dozen dozen retellings of the punch in '59, but I'm finding little else.

What's the story, or rather, the story after the story?

Thanks!

I also heard a story that Max Roach stood outside Ornette's house one night and screamed for him to come out and get his ass kicked.

[Joe]

First Ornette record that really grabbed me by the real-time balls and made me get a band together RIGHT NOW to play music like THIS - Dancing In Your Head.

Is there really that big a connection between Ornette and the punk rockers?

I 'll make no claims other than to my own experiences (limieted to time/place/talent pool/etc., but the players I found to make that band were all people who had been playing music that was more punk rock than it was anything else. Certainly wasn't the jazz players. They got the "sound" of Ornette's new music right away.

The links between Ornette and the late 70's NYC "No Wave" / art punk scene are pretty well-documented, aren't they? Blood Ulmer and RS Jackson being key figures who "ran" with both crowds... though race was definitely an issue in the punk scene of the time.

[JSngry]

Very well documented for the NYC scene, yes. Throwing in some "local impact" filling out.

You know, it just takes one record, and it just takes one or two people to have that record, and then play it for everybody you know. At least one of those people will go ahead and get it and play it for everybody they know, and...eventually it stops, but an impact has been made.

[bluesoul]

From the WKCR twitter feed:

Tune in at 10pm for a rare recording of Ornette Coleman in ‘67 at Uni. of Mass. with his quartet. WKCR 89.9 FM & http://wkcr.org

[clifford_thornton]

Is there really that big a connection between Ornette and the punk rockers?

I 'll make no claims other than to my own experiences (limieted to time/place/talent pool/etc., but the players I found to make that band were all people who had been playing music that was more punk rock than it was anything else. Certainly wasn't the jazz players. They got the "sound" of Ornette's new music right away.

As Joe mentions, Prime Time was a huge influence on no wave musicians (esp. James Chance but not just him) and post-punk like Minutemen and Mission of Burma. Presumably extends to earlier Ornette as well.

Edited June 15, 2015 by clifford_thornton

[JSngry]

I bought a few James Chance/White/Contortions records back in the day and...hmmmm...seemed pretty silly even then, all attitude, no meat. Nice if you want to do the make a splash thing and then dissolve, but geez, that's kinda ANTI-Ornette, really, Ornette was all about keeping it going, surviving, durability, the long game, if you will.

But I dug the sound of the records, I appreciated that part of it very much. and I certainly did hear the influence of Ornette & Blood on what it seemed to me they were going for..nice attitude, shame about the ability (I know, Punk DIY, all that, junk, self-loathing, etcetc. But still.). I do still like the Contortions thing where they're calling Stella on the phone, Stella sounds pretty hot. That was Lydia Lunch, right?

You can hear the difference by comparing the Rough Trade mix of Are You Glad To Be In America? to the Artists' House mix. Hardly sounds like the same music, at least. I had known the RT version almost since release, but took a while to get to the AH, and..SURPRISE!

While we're at it...Joseph Bowie seems to have been in the middle of that movement(s) at that time as well, perhaps not as well documented on record, but I do recall contemporaneous press accounts.

[Joe]

While we're at it...Joseph Bowie seems to have been in the middle of that movement(s) at that time as well, perhaps not as well documented on record, but I do recall contemporaneous press accounts.

Defunkt, indeed. Throw in Laswell and what Material was / started out as, and, well, the circle grows even more unbroken.

That record of Frank Lowe / Eugene Chadbourne duets (DON'T PUNK OUT) merits some mention within this context as well.

[LarryCurleyMoe]

What classical composer's sonic "vision" would most closely parallel that of Ornette's? Not literally, of course -- but who in the classical world would you say was maybe almost a kindred spirit of Ornette's?

The name that comes to mind for me is Charles Ives, but I'd be curious what anyone else thinks.

Are you asking literally - "Classical composer's" sonic vision? - Comparing to Ornette's on things like "Saints & Soldiers" or "Skies of America?" Or do you mean Ornette's vision overall? Thanks.

[clifford_thornton]

The live Contortions stuff is much more interesting than the James Chance/James White studio LPs. I think Stella was Lydia but I can't remember - probably.

Yeah, the Rough Trade version of Blood's record is mixed like a UK post-punk LP - they also put out the Swell Maps, who were a great band, very open in their persuasions.

Of course, the UK post-punk/DIY scene and the DIY improvisation scene rubbed elbows a fair amount - Steve Beresford dated one of the Slits, Viv Albertine, and played on some of their post-Cut recordings.

[clifford_thornton]

Joseph Bowie was in the Contortions - he's on a live set that ROIR put out on cassette (and which is on CD now), which is pretty prime.

[colinmce]

There's all that for sure. I also think a lot of this hinges on both Ornette's direct influence on Lou Reed, and the more indirect way that he helped open music up, which paved the way for the avant garde in jazz, which paved the way for the Velvet Underground. And in my estimation, VU is THE most important rock band after the Beatles. Everything we know as punk or alternative in rock flows from them in some way or another IMO.

[jlhoots]

Ornette also played on a Joe Henry album.

[mjazzg]

Viv Albertine lists "Dancing In Your Head" as something she was listening to in 79-81 (in her autobio 'Clothes, Music, Boys). The only other Jazz album she specifically lists is Bitches Brew. Othe jazz artists are Pharoah Sanders, Anthony Braxton, Eddie Harris, Don Cherry and improve listed from Company, Beresford, Zorn

[sgcim]

Phil Schaap just played a recording of Ornette when he was a student at The Lennox School of Jazz (AKA The Music Inn). OC was playing in two ensembles on the recording, one led by Herb Pomeroy, the other one led by MAX ROACH(!). This was 1959, so I don't know if it was before or after the incident at the Five Spot.

OC sounded okay until it went to the bridge; I think he could still only play in one key at that time.

That must have been a wild scene back then. The instructors were Bill Evans (his only known teaching gig), Connie Kay, Jim Hall, Pomeroy, Roach, Jimmy Giuffre and Bob Brookmeyer. Brookmeyer was so turned off by OC, that he threatened to leave his teaching position, but eventually adapted. Don Cherry and OC goaded Giuffre into his first free jazz playing experience.

Some other students also attending with OC were Gary McFarland, Steve Kuhn, Don Cherry, and the pop songwriter Margo Guyan!

RIP, Ornette.

[paul secor]

Phil Schaap just played a recording of Ornette when he was a student at The Lennox School of Jazz (AKA The Music Inn). OC was playing in two ensembles on the recording, one led by Herb Pomeroy, the other one led by MAX ROACH(!). This was 1959, so I don't know if it was before or after the incident at the Five Spot.

OC sounded okay until it went to the bridge; I think he could still only play in one key at that time.

That must have been a wild scene back then. The instructors were Bill Evans (his only known teaching gig), Connie Kay, Jim Hall, Pomeroy, Roach, Jimmy Giuffre and Bob Brookmeyer. Brookmeyer was so turned off by OC, that he threatened to leave his teaching position, but eventually adapted. Don Cherry and OC goaded Giuffre into his first free jazz playing experience.

Some other students also attending with OC were Gary McFarland, Steve Kuhn, Don Cherry, and the pop songwriter Margo Guyan!

RIP, Ornette.

I had never heard of Margo Guyan before, but it seems as if she had an interesting career: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margo_Guryan

[xybert]

Ornette and co also featured on that Yoko Ono Plastic Ono Band record.

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, a lot of cross-pollination indeed. Yoko was part of the Ornette group that played Royal Albert Hall in '68 and I'd LOVE to hear more of that concert (not to mention the one where she and Lennon performed with John Tchicai and John Stevens).

[Chuck Nessa]

Careful what you wish for - your imagination is probably better.

[jeffcrom]

Phil Schaap just played a recording of Ornette when he was a student at The Lennox School of Jazz (AKA The Music Inn). OC was playing in two ensembles on the recording, one led by Herb Pomeroy, the other one led by MAX ROACH(!). This was 1959, so I don't know if it was before or after the incident at the Five Spot.

OC sounded okay until it went to the bridge; I think he could still only play in one key at that time.

That must have been a wild scene back then. The instructors were Bill Evans (his only known teaching gig), Connie Kay, Jim Hall, Pomeroy, Roach, Jimmy Giuffre and Bob Brookmeyer. Brookmeyer was so turned off by OC, that he threatened to leave his teaching position, but eventually adapted. Don Cherry and OC goaded Giuffre into his first free jazz playing experience.

Some other students also attending with OC were Gary McFarland, Steve Kuhn, Don Cherry, and the pop songwriter Margo Guyan!

RIP, Ornette.

That concert has been bootlegged on a couple of labels over the years, and is probably not too hard to find.

[sgcim]

Phil Schaap just played a recording of Ornette when he was a student at The Lennox School of Jazz (AKA The Music Inn). OC was playing in two ensembles on the recording, one led by Herb Pomeroy, the other one led by MAX ROACH(!). This was 1959, so I don't know if it was before or after the incident at the Five Spot.

OC sounded okay until it went to the bridge; I think he could still only play in one key at that time.

That must have been a wild scene back then. The instructors were Bill Evans (his only known teaching gig), Connie Kay, Jim Hall, Pomeroy, Roach, Jimmy Giuffre and Bob Brookmeyer. Brookmeyer was so turned off by OC, that he threatened to leave his teaching position, but eventually adapted. Don Cherry and OC goaded Giuffre into his first free jazz playing experience.

Some other students also attending with OC were Gary McFarland, Steve Kuhn, Don Cherry, and the pop songwriter Margo Guyan!

RIP, Ornette.

That concert has been bootlegged on a couple of labels over the years, and is probably not too hard to find.

Thanks for the info- I'll do a search.

[JSngry]

Phil Schaap just played a recording of Ornette when he was a student at The Lennox School of Jazz (AKA The Music Inn). OC was playing in two ensembles on the recording, one led by Herb Pomeroy, the other one led by MAX ROACH(!). This was 1959, so I don't know if it was before or after the incident at the Five Spot.

OC sounded okay until it went to the bridge; I think he could still only play in one key at that time.

That must have been a wild scene back then. The instructors were Bill Evans (his only known teaching gig), Connie Kay, Jim Hall, Pomeroy, Roach, Jimmy Giuffre and Bob Brookmeyer. Brookmeyer was so turned off by OC, that he threatened to leave his teaching position, but eventually adapted. Don Cherry and OC goaded Giuffre into his first free jazz playing experience.

Some other students also attending with OC were Gary McFarland, Steve Kuhn, Don Cherry, and the pop songwriter Margo Guyan!

RIP, Ornette.

I had never heard of Margo Guyan before, but it seems as if she had an interesting career: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margo_Guryan

One of the folios of Ornette tunes (published by MJQ Music, official!)I have stashed away somewhere has Margo Guryan lyrics to, I think, "Lonely Woman" and "Una Muy Bonita". I had heard of her for something in the hippie days (although so often superficial, those were times when names that got dropped were actually worthy of note), and wondered how she got hooked up with Ornette, and now it makes sense.

Also, as I've understood it, Ornette & Don were there under the auspices of John Lewis himself, Lewis and Percy Heath(?). Not sure what the exact sequence was, but Lewis was in the middle of his Thrid Stream thing, and felt that Ornette was important as far as moving things along, so much so that he sponsored him & DC at the school that year. That was his "coming out party" as far as East Coast exposure goes, and the Five Spot gig happened in the wake of Lennox, as did pretty much everything else, Gunther Schuller, Atlantic, Five Spot, all of it.

This is the one that has the Margo Guryan lyrics (and iirc, Una Muy Bonita gets evened out to 4/4 all the way through to accommodate the lyrics. The instrumental lead sheet is more accurate). But you gotta think - already, some people in the John Lewis/Gunther Schuller/Atlantic axis was putting some money into Ornette, to get lyrics on the books for what they thought might have "crossover" appel. And come to think of it, a fair number of people have covered, Guryan's lyrics, I think? Helen Merrill, for sure and or for real, being one. Freda Payne, another. Go figure.

There's another one with only some overlap, but I can't find a picture of it. It's got a brown cover and a big Ornette head.

[Rooster_Ties]

Ornette tunes with vocals? Never knew! Any examples uploaded to Yoiutube, or other streaming sources?

[Scott Dolan]

Careful what you wish for - your imagination is probably better.

Especially when Yoko Ono is involved...

[paul secor]

Ornette tunes with vocals? Never knew! Any examples uploaded to Yoiutube, or other streaming sources?

In the late 60's, I remember seeing a film called Who's Crazy that Ornette did the soundtrack for. Marianne Faithfull sang an Ornette tune (I believe that it was "Lonely Woman", but it's been a long time). Can't find anything on You Tube or even any mention on the web of Marianne Faithfull doing this.

Edited June 16, 2015 by paul secor

[clifford_thornton]

Interesting - I recall reading that the film had something to do with the Living Theatre, but wasn't sure if it actually was completed and released.

On the OC with lyrics front, I've heard the Merrill version (beautiful) and Patty Waters also did "Lonely Woman," albeit with lyrics she wrote herself (also beautiful). The latter is on Marzette Watts' Savoy LP.

Also have very few problems with Yoko Ono. She's an interesting artist and seems like a cool lady, from someone I know who works with her.