Kamasi Washington: THE EPIC

[Steve Reynolds]

I've been kicking myself for missing Matt Nelson with Henry Grimes & Ches Smith last fall.

I picked another show to hear Mat Maneri & Ingrid Laubrock with Kris Davis' Capricorn Climber and unbeknownst to me, they switched the band the previous day to not include either for whatever reason.

Plus the second set after the trio mentioned above was Ches with Tyshawn Sorey and Randy Peterson!!!

I still don't know what I was thinking - plus I heard the drummer trio thing was off the fucking hook with the *great* Randy Peterson shaking the walks of The Stone.

I'll be sure to check out Matt Nelson sooner than later.....

[AllenLowe]

I don't think we are advocating any Romantic notion of the improviser, nor are we in need of a new paradigm; Leeway I think you are a wee bit behind in this, as the old notions of what constitute 'art' were scattered to the winds about 50 years ago and more (see Beckett on Proust; Robbe Grillet, Toward a New Novel). And that puts me, too, significantly behind, though I do think Beckett and Robbe Grillet (and Richard Gilman) hold up pretty well as guideposts toward the rejection of the same-old-same-old.

What I miss is the passion in the midst of passivity - which I hear in Prez, Konitz, Malaby, Giuffre, Tristano, Bley, Berne, and others of course - the fire at the center of a cold wind, maybe, though these metaphors are somewhat lacking. The mechanistic urge that puts a new improviser over the top is built from the paradox of 'it means nothing - so I do it.' Or, as Beckett put it, 'he has nothing to say - only a way of saying it.'

Edited June 8, 2015 by AllenLowe

[.:.impossible]

I think we should cut Halvorson some slack here guys.

I didn't think it was possible for this to be taken as anything but a joke. I just don't post enough anymore I guess.

[JSngry]

This is like latter-day Incognito with somewhat better soloists. I really don't see why the fuss, for or against, and I really don't mind later-day Incognito, especially as sunny day road music with people in the car who don't understand stressing out on music, like fuck that neurotic shit, we got all the stress you and me can both handle in our regular lives, why do we need to look for more of it already? And this will fit that bill just fine, thank you.

I mean, plenty of people have their existential crises outside the arena of music. I'm like, hey, better they still have good players playing well than bad players playing bullshit, or, especially, good pa;lyers playing bullshit, because if THAT'S all it takes to make you happy, your existential crisis sounds more like a case of whinyassbitch than it sounds like a real life problem. But if you really DO have all that other shit going on, and just want some kind of a musical chillout, placebo or otherwise, and you like it polished and relatable at YOUR level of non-insultation, good for ya' at that, and to the people who provide that musical service, good for them too, it's an honest living.

Latter-day Incognito is like 70s for my children, this is like 70s for my grandkids. I guess everybody gonna need them some 70s at some point. I can dig that, that was when people still had dreams that didn't involve porn and Instagram and all that The Whole World Is Watching, So Spread Your Legs Bitch mindset. Different drugs then, better drugs, at least until they weren't.

[CJ Shearn]

Great discussion! I especially agree with epistrophy's points

[danasgoodstuff]

This is like latter-day Incognito with somewhat better soloists. I really don't see why the fuss, for or against, and I really don't mind later-day Incognito, especially as sunny day road music with people in the car who don't understand stressing out on music, like fuck that neurotic shit, we got all the stress you and me can both handle in our regular lives, why do we need to look for more of it already? And this will fit that bill just fine, thank you.

I mean, plenty of people have their existential crises outside the arena of music. I'm like, hey, better they still have good players playing well than bad players playing bullshit, or, especially, good pa;lyers playing bullshit, because if THAT'S all it takes to make you happy, your existential crisis sounds more like a case of whinyassbitch than it sounds like a real life problem. But if you really DO have all that other shit going on, and just want some kind of a musical chillout, placebo or otherwise, and you like it polished and relatable at YOUR level of non-insultation, good for ya' at that, and to the people who provide that musical service, good for them too, it's an honest living.

Latter-day Incognito is like 70s for my children, this is like 70s for my grandkids. I guess everybody gonna need them some 70s at some point. I can dig that, that was when people still had dreams that didn't involve porn and Instagram and all that The Whole World Is Watching, So Spread Your Legs Bitch mindset. Different drugs then, better drugs, at least until they weren't.

Ilived thru the 70s, so I don't need this. To those who didn't and therefore do...knock yourself out! (Yes I did finally get around to listening a bit, not unpleasant, but that was all i needed.)

[xybert]

The retro thing doesn't worry me too much. For me, use whatever framework you want, the result either works for me or it doesn't. There's ostensibly cutting edge stuff that doesn't do anything for me and there's less ambitious stuff that i'll listen to a thousand times because it just subjectively does it for me.

Haven't listened to The Epic apart from the first track and the Amazon samples. The first track put me right off, but Coltrane/Tyner homages almost always get my back up as soon as i hear those chords. The samples of the rest of the album sound okay to me for what they are. Not the type of thing that i'd go out and buy (too much other essential-to-me stuff out there etc) but i wouldn't diss someone for enjoying it.

The praise it's getting from relatively mainstream internet media is of course a bit much but look at the context... look at what else they go for... you could scratch your head at a lot of the rock/indie/electro/hip-hop stuff they cover as well. Now jazz is joining the party! Have you guys heard Future Islands? Holy shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ee4bfu_t3c

[JSngry]

Nothing wrong with that cut that Ronald Isley and a little slower tempo couldn't do wonders for. Or even that tempo, if the bass player had some kind of pump goin' on.

That's what I like about latter-day Ingognito, that bass always got that pump, not volume, pocket.

However, that's an old guy talking. Everything today is faster, lighter, smaller footprint, etc. Got everything on all the time so shit's gott respect the other shit's space if it wants to be admitted for consideration. So maybe to its targeted audience this shit sounds like suishysexglide to last all night long. To me, its got that fasthardnovariationofanythingbutposition vibe of contemporary fuckporn.

[Joe]

Within the context of contemporary experiences and concerns within the African-American community, a return to more explicitly "spiritual" / "out of this world" music -- or music that connotes as much -- makes a whole lotta sense to me.

[JSngry]

Kamasi Washington not aiming at older white jazz fans say whaaaaaaaaaaat?

Jazz cannot survive without this key demographic!

[king ubu]

Kamasi Washington not aiming at older white jazz fans say whaaaaaaaaaaat?

Jazz cannot survive without this key demographic!

Wait, wait, wait ...

Seriously, I like the comparison to Incognito quite some - makes sense to me

[AllenLowe]

uhhhh.....so far the only people I have heard praise Washington are.....older white jazz fans.

[king ubu]

Well, ya know, the others focus on shakin' their booty as a way of communication.

[Joe]

Kamasi Washington not aiming at older white jazz fans say whaaaaaaaaaaat?

Jazz cannot survive without this key demographic!

The runaway success of EMPIRE aside, it is incumbent upon us all to watch more than Channel Zero, you know.

http://afrosonics.tumblr.com/

Edited June 9, 2015 by Joe

[medjuck]

uhhhh.....so far the only people I have heard praise Washington are.....older white jazz fans.

"He has since played along with a musically diverse group of musicians including Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Horace Tapscott, Gerald Wilson, Lauryn Hill, Nas, Snoop Dogg, George Duke, Chaka Khan, Flying Lotus, Francisco Aguabella, the Pan Afrikaan Peoples Orchestra andRaphael Saadiq. Washington played saxophone on Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly^[3"

[AllenLowe]

that's not audience, that's musicians he's worked with. I should have clarified that we were talking about market. And his market, based on what I've seen, is old people who think this is young peoples' music

Edited June 9, 2015 by AllenLowe

[medjuck]

The review suggests that he had more than a few young black people at his downtown LA appearance:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/posts/la-et-ms-kamasi-washington-band-proves-the-epic-hype-thrills-a-sold-out-regent-20150505-column.html

And though it does say there were a few old jazz guys there, usually when I go to anything down town I'm one of the few old guys.

(Not that I was there-- the only guys I've driven to Los Angeles to see have been 80 yrs old: Ornette Coleman and Leonard Cohen.)

[niels]

that's not audience, that's musicians he's worked with. I should have clarified that we were talking about market. And his market, based on what I've seen, is old people who think this is young peoples' music

Well, I have to say that here in the Netherlands I see mostly people in their 20's and and 30's, and who mostly go to party's where a mixture of house/hiphop/jazz/funk/soul is played by DJ's talk about this album (surely the FlyLo and Kendrik Lamar connection and the fact it is released on the very hipster Brainfeeder records triggered them to listen). I haven't listened to the album myself, but here I see this guy is getting the same "hype" from young people that musicians like Christian Scott and Robert Glasper also got.

Edited June 10, 2015 by niels

[paul secor]

To get back to K. Washington, listening to the clips that have been posted, what he and his fellow musicians do was done (better) 40 years ago - and I had no use for it back then. Recycled pap.

[Joe]

To get back to K. Washington, listening to the clips that have been posted, what he and his fellow musicians do was done (better) 40 years ago - and I had no use for it back then. Recycled pap.

I dig it; nobody has to like this music.

However, I would say that for some young African-Americans, what Washington et al. are offering enters the category of "history we didn't know we had and which, come to think of it, has actually been denied to us in some important ways." This isn't a nostalgia trip for them. The aspect of discovery here is real.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Joe

[paul secor]

To get back to K. Washington, listening to the clips that have been posted, what he and his fellow musicians do was done (better) 40 years ago - and I had no use for it back then. Recycled pap.

I dig it; nobody has to like this music.

However, I would say that for some young African-Americans, what Washington et al. are offering enters the category of "history we didn't know we had and which, come to think of it, has actually been denied to us in some important ways." This isn't a nostalgia trip for them. The aspect of discovery here is real.

Somewhat true. But if people made an effort to learn history (and it's out there - only denied if you haven't made an effort to seek it out), they wouldn't need this stuff.

[.:.impossible]

Perhaps they will now that it has been made apparent. Maybe they'll even buy a copy of wax poetic, and they'll be on their way, one gateway at a time.

[clifford_thornton]

listening on Spotify now; it's okay but nothing earth-shattering and the boomy production is really annoying.

ugh, lame piano solo just started. I revise my opinion that it is okay.

[Joe]

To get back to K. Washington, listening to the clips that have been posted, what he and his fellow musicians do was done (better) 40 years ago - and I had no use for it back then. Recycled pap.

I dig it; nobody has to like this music.

However, I would say that for some young African-Americans, what Washington et al. are offering enters the category of "history we didn't know we had and which, come to think of it, has actually been denied to us in some important ways." This isn't a nostalgia trip for them. The aspect of discovery here is real.

Somewhat true. But if people made an effort to learn history (and it's out there - only denied if you haven't made an effort to seek it out), they wouldn't need this stuff.

I hear that too. As a teacher myself, I understand the frustration that can set in.

But the access I have to this history is not, by and large, the same access many of the African-American students with whom I've worked have. In fact, "access" to them is an incredibly loaded term and concept.

But, yeah, all of this changes nothing about the quality of Washington's music. And that's not really my concern here. As a cultural phenomenon, though... there's something notable whatever "crossover" this music is achieving.

[paul secor]

I was saying that people in general make no effort to study and learn about what's happened before their time. Given that, you end up musically and culturally with stuff like this recording and other stuff that's out there. Maybe when people listen to Kamasi Washington, they go on to other things that are more worthwhile. Looking at the way things work, I doubt it.

How many young people who listen to contemporary country music check out country music of earlier years? How many rap fans check out soul and early r&b? (Maybe the guys who create rap, so they can find out things to sample - but how many listeners?) How many indie rock fans check out early rock & roll?

Or, on a wider scale, how many people check out histories of parties and candidates before they vote?

Joe, as a teacher, you have to have hope about these kinds of things. Perhaps some of your hope will rub off on me.