Kamasi Washington: THE EPIC

[Hot Ptah]

I have just purchased this album and played it several times. I am not concerned about the album's packaging or titles, any hype attached to the album, the popularity of the album, or any ideas of its place within the jazz music business. I am just reacting to the music itself.

To me, this is a pleasant mainstream jazz album, appealing in its energy. The musicians play with a freshness and conviction which connect with me.  The strings and vocals are used in a sparing, tasteful manner. The vocals are beautiful. It is not a very unusual jazz album. It fits comfortably within the jazz mainstream. I really do not get why there have been so many negative emotional reactions to it.

I think that Kamasi Washington is the least compelling soloist on the album. He is all right, but pianist Cameron Groves, trumpeter Igmar Thomas, and the bass soloists all strike me as more exciting soloists. I think that Kamasi Washington is more of a conceptual bandleader than he is a monster soloist.

I do not hear much of a connection to the Alice Coltrane and Pharoah Sanders Impulse albums which are often referred to as "spiritual jazz".

If the album had been titled "Cherokee" after a standard which is performed here, and given a nondescript album cover, I think that more people might view it as I do, as a good, pleasant mainstream jazz album, worthy of repeated listens but hardly something to get judgmental or angry about. I don't understand the judgmental posts on this thread.

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, Hot Ptah said:

If the album had been titled "Cherokee" after a standard which is performed here, and given a nondescript album cover, I think that more people might view it as I do, as a good, pleasant mainstream jazz album, worthy of repeated listens but hardly something to get judgmental or angry about. I don't understand the judgmental posts on this thread.

Fairly or unfairly, the reaction/judgment/anger is to the hype rather than to the music.

Guy

[JSngry]

 

On 9/28/2015, 7:13:37, cayetano said:

  On 8/26/2015, 11:36:40, JSngry said:

People who know how to make a wiki page look good and such, please do so...it's not really something I know how to do. But geez, it seemed kinda to hear "why isn't Darius Jones" better known, and then, there not even be a wiki page for him. But what I've done is pretty basic, and not really "attractive", so, again, anybody who can fill it up and/or make it look better, have at it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_Jones_(Saxophone)

 

On 9/28/2015, 7:13:37, cayetano said:

I'm trying to improve free jazz discographies on the wikipedia and I created some musician pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Brown_(saxophonist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandelis_Karayorgis

Darius Jones was on my list for next updates.

In progress now.

 

Whoever it was who did this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_Jones_%28saxophonist%29

a hearty "Thank You!!!" is sent your way!

 

[Hot Ptah]

34 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

Fairly or unfairly, the reaction/judgment/anger is to the hype rather than to the music.

Guy

To me, the members of this forum should be on a more discerning level of discussion than that. What are we, teenage girls oohing and aahing over the latest heartthrob?  Are we early 1970s pre-teens fighting over whether David Cassidy or Bobby Sherman is the cutest? What ever happened to discussing MUSIC?

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Hot Ptah

[A Lark Ascending]

I've not heard this record but I know it's picking up a lot of UK attention e.g.:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/dec/09/best-albums-of-2015-no-8-the-epic-by-kamasi-washington

Very often when I hear a new folk record by a young group my immediate reaction is 'Oh no, not 'A Begging I Will Go' or 'The Banks of the Sweet Primroses' again. And then I think, 'Hold on, the people who this is aimed have probably never heard those songs before; they'll sound totally new to them.'

The same goes for records like this. It's young people making records for young people; somewhere down the line they might want to explore 'The Masters' (yuch!!!) but at the moment they are listening to people of their own age making music that reflects their own time.

I'd imagine the self-anointed gatekeepers who can be relied on to turnout and exclaim that it's all been done better before by (insert your own 'Master') will impress themselves mightily but be regarded as boring old farts by the people the music is aimed at.   

How does 'Ballad of a Thin Man' go again? 

[JSngry]

Give me some milk or else go home!

[clifford_thornton]

1 hour ago, Hot Ptah said:

To me, the members of this forum should be on a more discerning level of discussion than that. What are we, teenage girls oohing and aahing over the latest heartthrob?  Are we early 1970s pre-teens fighting over whether David Cassidy or Bobby Sherman is the cutest? What ever happened to discussing MUSIC?

 

We talk about writing on here all the time. Isn't that discerning discussion of the 'hype' given over to almost any artist?

[JSngry]

Also - let's keep in mind that the choices are not limited to Bobby Sherman & David Cassidy, who are more fully gathered with Sajid Khan & Jack Wild in any discussion. About anything.

And let us not forget that Sajid Khan's fame was at least in part assisted by the Jay North Comeback.

Pop Culture itself might be simple enough, but remembering all the forgotten names is a little tougher nut to meg.

[Hot Ptah]

24 minutes ago, A Lark Ascending said:

I've not heard this record but I know it's picking up a lot of UK attention e.g.:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/dec/09/best-albums-of-2015-no-8-the-epic-by-kamasi-washington

Very often when I hear a new folk record by a young group my immediate reaction is 'Oh no, not 'A Begging I Will Go' or 'The Banks of the Sweet Primroses' again. And then I think, 'Hold on, the people who this is aimed have probably never heard those songs before; they'll sound totally new to them.'

The same goes for records like this. It's young people making records for young people; somewhere down the line they might want to explore 'The Masters' (yuch!!!) but at the moment they are listening to people of their own age making music that reflects their own time.

I'd imagine the self-anointed gatekeepers who can be relied on to turnout and exclaim that it's all been done better before by (insert your own 'Master') will impress themselves mightily but be regarded as boring old farts by the people the music is aimed at.  

How does 'Ballad of a Thin Man' go again?

 

To me, after hearing "The Epic" several times, any notions of what music came before it are largely irrelevant. "The Epic" stands on its own as a pleasant mainstream jazz album. I do not hear many echoes of the past in it. It is not especially derivative of older styles, to my ears.

My point is, if members of the Organissimo board are not going to listen to music as music, without being distracted by the kind of pop culture nonsense that overwhelms much discussion these days, then who will listen to music and give musical opinions?

16 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

We talk about writing on here all the time. Isn't that discerning discussion of the 'hype' given over to almost any artist?

But where is the discussion of what "The Epic" actually sounds like? Why do we, who should be among the most discerning listeners, choose not to talk about what an album sounds like, what the music actually is like, apart from any hype spewed by others?

 

Or is it that we rarely buy or listen to any newly released jazz, so it is much easier to just dismiss newly released jazz with snarky remarks, without actually hearing the music at all?

[medjuck]

I still haven't listened to this, but a friend on Facebook who I don't think is a a big jazz fan wrote the following:

 

"I  almost never discover music on airplanes. And lately, frankly, I've been finding it difficult to discover exciting new music anywhere. But yesterday, on my way back from Warsaw, Poland to Pittsburgh, PA I did.

These days, it seems to me, record labels are using airplane "stations" to promote whatever they want to promote. (They've probably always been doing that.) So most of what you get to hear on planes is just that -- the tracks the labels want you to hear, which is of course whatever they think will find the largest market, which isn't necessarily what's most interesting. (Duh.) But can be.

The classical channel tends to be filled with "greatest hits" that I know backwards and forwards. The classic rock channel -- same thing, and most of it, I don't like. The hip-hop, pop, etc. channels -- well, you get the idea.

So, as often happens on these flights, I ended up on the jazz channel. And there I discovered this new record by a guy named Kamasi Washington. The record is called "The Epic." I listened to it twice all the way through, a third time, partially. It blew my mind.

Sometimes I like to share my enthusiasms."

 

What I think is interesting is that my friend wasn't influenced by any "hype", he just heard the record and liked it. 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by medjuck

[Hot Ptah]

That is really interesting, how he heard it unaware of what it was, and liked it so much.

 

I have to say that I do not quite understand why this album blows people's minds--unless any pleasant mainstream jazz would blow their minds. It's not THAT good. To me, it's somewhere in the middle between something that should be scorned and something that should be idolized--neither reaction is appropriate.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Hot Ptah

[JSngry]

Never really thought about the mechanics of airline play before.

Is it really as easy as that, some guy with the airline looks at the charts and says, oh, people are buying this, we'll add it?

Or are airlines just out and out offering "stations" to the labels for whatever price to increase revenue? Other side of the coin - do the labels get any money back on that, or do they take a charge-off for promotional expense? And what about publishing/composing royalties? On a per-play basis, lump sum usage fee, or zero, zilch, nada?

I'd think there would be room for some good old fashioned schmoozing between airline and label/artist reps along the way, some guy calling some other guy and saying hey, we got this thing happening, you want in on it? and the other guy saying, well, let's put it on our radar, see how it goes, and then the other guy calls and back and forth until a deal is reached.

Crazy, all the ways to make, or not make, money off of music, still.

 

 

[Scott Dolan]

27 minutes ago, medjuck said:

I still haven't listened to this, but a friend on Facebook who I don't think is a a big jazz fan wrote the following:

 

"I  almost never discover music on airplanes. And lately, frankly, I've been finding it difficult to discover exciting new music anywhere. But yesterday, on my way back from Warsaw, Poland to Pittsburgh, PA I did.

These days, it seems to me, record labels are using airplane "stations" to promote whatever they want to promote. (They've probably always been doing that.) So most of what you get to hear on planes is just that -- the tracks the labels want you to hear, which is of course whatever they think will find the largest market, which isn't necessarily what's most interesting. (Duh.) But can be.

The classical channel tends to be filled with "greatest hits" that I know backwards and forwards. The classic rock channel -- same thing, and most of it, I don't like. The hip-hop, pop, etc. channels -- well, you get the idea.

So, as often happens on these flights, I ended up on the jazz channel. And there I discovered this new record by a guy named Kamasi Washington. The record is called "The Epic." I listened to it twice all the way through, a third time, partially. It blew my mind.

Sometimes I like to share my enthusiasms."

 

What I think is interesting is that my friend wasn't influenced by any "hype", he just heard the record and liked it. 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that, med. 

I may have to get this album just because the hype and the backlash are intriguing. 

I did hear some bits and pieces from it, and it didn't strike me as either innovative or offensive, but more along the lines of what HP has been saying. A nice mainstream Jazz album. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Scott Dolan

[mandrill]

I haven't bought an album or heard it in its entirety, but went to see that band live back in August. It was an impressive show. At various moments I was thinking about Ayler (rather obvious), Sun Ra (with June Tyson ), AEC, Weather Report. None of it sounded derivative though- rather like the band is subconsciously processed all those possible influences into a sound of its own. The overall vibe was more like at a rock concert, with folks shaking and dancing on the floor.

[Hot Ptah]

3 hours ago, mandrill said:

I haven't bought an album or heard it in its entirety, but went to see that band live back in August. It was an impressive show. At various moments I was thinking about Ayler (rather obvious), Sun Ra (with June Tyson ), AEC, Weather Report. None of it sounded derivative though- rather like the band is subconsciously processed all those possible influences into a sound of its own. The overall vibe was more like at a rock concert, with folks shaking and dancing on the floor.

That is really interesting. That is more intrigue and excitement than I would have expected from hearing the album. I want to see them live now.

[jazzbo]

I find that interesting as well. I like the album, I feel about it about the same way HP does, and wouldn't have expected "folks shaking and dancing on the floor." Cool!

[niels]

I also still haven't listened to the album (don't know if I will), but friends of mine are suddenly askin me questions about Jazz because they heard this new phenomenon (their words) and they totally love it. Just for that reason alone I really can't hate on him, because the fact is that he is getting people around me interested in Jazz, which I am all for.

A few weeks ago he played in the Netherlands at the Le Gues Who festival (festival with mostly hipster bands), and the newspaper the Volkskrant, which is one of the biggest newspapers here even covered it (which is extremely rare for Jazz) and made a video document of Kamasi with footage of his very well attended concert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiNpPl0HQ1M

Edited December 10, 2015 by niels

[Guy Berger]

16 minutes ago, niels said:

I also still haven't listened to the album (don't know if I will), but friends of mine are suddenly askin me questions about Jazz because they heard this new phenomenon (their words) and they totally love it. Just for that reason alone I really can't hate on him, because the fact is that he is getting people around me interested in Jazz, which I am all for.

I had the same experience - friends who enjoy jazz somewhat really getting into this album.

[A Lark Ascending]

Wait until January when the new David Bowie album, extensively featuring Donny McCaslin's band, comes out.

Expect lots of 'jazz is back' headlines and widespread sitings of the Guardians of the Tradition ripping their clothes into rags, then retreating to the desert to sit on poles and gaze down haughtily.  

[JSngry]

45 minutes ago, A Lark Ascending said:

Wait until January when the new David Bowie album, extensively featuring Donny McCaslin's band, comes out.

Expect lots of 'jazz is back' headlines and widespread sitings of the Guardians of the Tradition ripping their clothes into rags, then retreating to the desert to sit on poles and gaze down haughtily.  

This is serious? I'm interested if so!

Can't find original cuts on YouTube, just remixes that are all kinds of chopped, sliced and diced, but McCaslin worked very effectively and very organically with Monday Michiru about a decade or so ago on several tracks. Truthfully, i think his improvisational aesthetic is better suited to the focused and specific ends of "pop" records than to "jazz" (he's prone to a bit of rambling repetitiveness in that context, imo), but the problem there is simple - who in "pop" is hip enough to WANT what he brings to their records?

This is in no way representative of the original cut, which is very "sectional" and "electro-cool", not at all the "tropical" "house" of this remix, but you can hear from McCaslin's solo (heard here in full, over the new remix groove, again, as is the entire song) that he's not playing generic pop tenor bullshit. The guy comes to play!

 

[A Lark Ascending]

Bowie hires jazz artists for new album

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34866235

"Recording in New York between January and May this year, Bowie sought out jazz artists to stop him falling back on rock cliches. Led by saxophonist Donny McCaslin, the core group includes virtuoso guitarist Ben Monder and drummer Mark Guiliana - recently named one of the world's top 10 drummers."

[JSngry]

Those are good players and Bowie's far from an idiot. If they attempt to make music instead of hits (talking about intent here, not results), that could be really, really good.

And I've been saying it for a good while now - what Monday Michiru did when she was viably focused on making music with little to no real market considerations..people gonna get around to that, knowingly or otherwise, before they'll be able to get past it. It's just evolutionary math.

[king ubu]

Have you heard the Bowie/Maria Schneider track?

McCaslin is on it, too, of course ...

http://jazztimes.com/articles/152272-david-bowie-and-maria-schneider-s-enigmatic-collaboration

[JSngry]

Wasn't up to speed on that one, thanks!

[Scott Dolan]

Mmmmmmm...

Maria Schneider...

Soooooooo yummy...

*poof*

Wait, what were we talking about again?