Kamasi Washington: THE EPIC

[JSngry]

otoh, we lament the social/neighborhood element that the music used to have, and then when it comes back we start worrying about our nuts getting cut off or some anachronistic parallel universe shit like that because the music's not THAT good, and, oh, like all those Charles Earland records were All Time Great JazzRecords, no, it was how they ingratiated into the culture that gives them relevancy today. Most of them would not be remembered today if they had not been jukebox-radioed then.But they were, and we do, and fondly, no less.

I'm not reading the papers too much about this, but on the ground here where I live, it's pretty much a point of black folk enjoying other black folk playing this type jazz, the kind of Afro-Centric "spiritual" vibe from the 70s. In a post-Ferguson, Black Lives Matter climate, yeah, people are digging it as a part of that. Simple as that, or given today's social climate, "simple" as that.

Really don't see a problem there, to be honest. People gonna like what they gonna like. All the great music that doesn't get a machine (any machine) behind it, old news, hell, perpetual news. KW neither first nor last to do an end-around on the established machinery machine. But it got to people, and people took it. So, what, exactly? Dude got a fanbase and is having a run.

Problem, officer?

I mean, is the angst about people buying and liking this music, or is the angst about what the black critics are saying, or what? Why are white folk so angsty about what type of jazz black folk are liking and black critics are pimping? Why is that a thing now? I mean, ok, why would that be a thing ever, rhetorical question supreme, of course?

[clifford_thornton]

All well-reasoned points.

It is getting quite a lot of verbiage, though, and I don't think the same amount of hype would've been levied on your average Charles Earland record in 1973, much less an Alan Shorter LP (Ron Welburn excepted). 

[JSngry]

Charles Earland did not live in a time where all voices had all kinds of handy media outlets - but he DID get beuacoupass radio play, which was where you went t to get hype for a product aimed at the type of market we're talking about here. I mean, the guy got played on R&B stations, maybe sometimes just as bumper music, but, you know, once shit catches on. And there were people in place to keep an eye on that, and to bump it up as appropriate.

Consider also that Alan Shorter is possibly better know among his hoped-for audience now than he ever was during his lifetime...and/but that said audience is probably all/any kinds of ways neither interested in or about KW. C'est la vie, correct?

Internets and Social Medias done shifted any # of paradigms. Tis what it is.

[JSngry]

Also...how many of "us" read stuff like Jet (or Sepia) back in the day, or our local African-American newspapers (where they existed), be they daily, weekly, or monthly? Or use Players for a stroke-mag (not available at all newsstands, btw)?

Point being - the internet is generally pretty damn all-access in a way that past media were not. It is SO much easier for white folk to follow black pop culture now unfiltered than it was back in the day.

[AllenLowe]

Wow - yeah, not comfortable touching that without more coffee, but I do see what you're saying. The main praise I've seen for Washington's music has been from places like Tiny Mix Tapes, Pitchfork, et al., who primarily deal with the contemporary zeitgeist of post-indie-rock fallout. I think his music "sucks" but don't have enough bandwidth to engage it intelligently. 

What would Darius Jones come up with if he was given a major label budget? Or Micah Gaugh (think he's stepped away from the saxophone, but I digress...) ? Probably a lot more than Washington. Hell, you could go back a few years and dive into some of Matt Shipp's Thirsty Ear collaborations and, even if some of them might seem a little clunky, they're still infinitely more full of possibilities than "The Epic."

So yes, it's unquestionably true that there are a lot more young white folks playing the music now, and I understand the viewpoint of some that Washington could be 'taking it back.' Valid point. The problem is that whether you hold it up against Billy Harper or Ingrid Laubrock, "The Epic" isn't particularly good.

thank you. Exactly.

[jcam_44]

The new Darius Jones is excellent!! I've gotten to spin it 4 times since Friday. 

 

Back to Kamasi... I commend him for finding an avenue to deliver his music to the masses. I just don't find his release particularly inspiring. i'm curious if Kamasi thinks of his work as "groundbreaking" as some of the critics do. 

[clifford_thornton]

Re: Earland, you're probably right, Jim, and I wasn't around at the time to hear him on the radio or read then-current issues of Ebony, Sepia, etc. (could of course do that now). I don't read much on the landscape of hip-hop, R&B, nu-soul, and the like, and there may be some intelligent coverage of Washington's music from those avenues - I'm not really sure. The Fader was the only hip-hop mag I ever read, mostly because a friend worked for them, and it seems to be a shadow of its former self these days. 

I wonder if this record had been released as a single 38-minute condensed piece, if it would feel 'better'? Part of the problem with it is that it is absolutely overstuffed. Sure, Earland got in on the double-LP action, but this damn thing is three CDs and they aren't short!

[JSngry]

"Intellegent coverage"...not sure what that means, other than "critical analysis", and again, this thing is not really landing at that airport, nor do I think it was ever scheduled to.

But as far as the press coverage being mostly "white", it might be. Like I said, don't really know, don't really care. But I do know that I got friends sending me links like this with some frequency: http://www.okayplayer.com/news/kamasi-washington-the-epic-headed-to-vinyl.html

http://www.okayplayer.com/ good old-fashioned grassroots street team pimping to the audience to keep the interest alive for as long as it can be sustained.

It seems safe to say that the target audience of this site and others like it (and there are more than a few, if the forwards I get are any indication) is not particularly "white", nor particularly interested in "jazz orthodoxy", and probably even less interested in "jazz criticism". So...keep that in perspective before getting all fleeflimpled up about These Savage Uncouth Hip-Hop Pseudo-Jazz Negroes Are Coming To Take Our Jazz, or something like that, that's really just....out of another world, really.

 

[clifford_thornton]

well, not all critical analysis is "intelligent," so... but yeah, that was generally what I was reaching for. Non-fluff. And I guess at the end of the day this record isn't for me - and perhaps it is because I wish it were more uncouth and savage, rather than less so. 

[jcam_44]

I'm not really sure anyone on this site in particular thought they were part of the target audience. I find this to be a fascinating study in marketing really. They seemingly packaged a run of the mill album (IMO) and are having substantial commercial success.  

[JSngry]

And good for them. They took a shot and got it right.

Now, what's the sequel gonna be/do? Is KW gonna become a mainstay of a subset of a generation, like Grover (or Doug/Jean Carn, to go into a deeper subset of a generation), or is this a moment of zeitgeist for all concerned? I mean, even if he does the same thing better, will it matter to this many people?

 

[jcam_44]

 

And good for them. They took a shot and got it right.

Now, what's the sequel gonna be/do? Is KW gonna become a mainstay of a subset of a generation, like Grover (or Doug/Jean Carn, to go into a deeper subset of a generation), or is this a moment of zeitgeist for all concerned? I mean, even if he does the same thing better, will it matter to this many people?

I agree, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Great question!! I'm curious the answer as well.

[jazzbo]

I guess I like this more than many. I'm on my fourth go round through the three cds and it's fun listening. I like that the trombone is featured often and it's well-played. Nothing ground-breaking, but I'm tickled at its success and glad I gave it a shot.

[kh1958]

 

I agree with you; I liked the record for the most part. I would go see him live if given the chance. It seems admirable and impressive that he has been able to achieve a little notoriety with instrumental music in this day.  

[Guy Berger]

Well, here's a question since superior players to KW (e.g. Darius Jones) were mentioned.  Presumably KW's "commercial angle" was that he is a close collaborator with more commercially successful (albeit critically well-regarded) artists.  Why don't the superior players do this more often?

[JSngry]

How come Darius Jones doesn't have a wikipedia entry (that I can find, anyway)?

Looking at KW's entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamasi_Washington it appears that he has a history of intermingling with more "commercial" artists as well as more "community" jazz organizations. Maybe it's just somethng he likes to do, and maybe it's something Darius Jones doesn't like to do. Also, Gerald Wilson, Horace Tapscott, devoted to community presence, encouraging of people at least as much as "style". LA.. kinda grows its own as well as takes in others in that regard. NYC...maybe not so much?

Again, music is as much social as it is business, and vice-versa. You can't make somebody hang with and get an in with somebody they don't particularly want to be in with. And if somebody is hanging out and they get a break or two, there's no foul play, that's just life. And a group of similarly-minded individuals ending up in the same area and working together to get something going, and then it gets some traction, hey...American Dream, for real.

"Just showing up" is important, and showing up where people are just increases the odds. Know who you want to be there when you do show up, hey, there's your key to the city right there, even if finding the lock is not always a given.

 

[jlhoots]

I'm "amazed" (well maybe not amazed) that this rather generic music is getting this much attention.

[Shawn]

Going to see this kind of music played live in a club (by a player under the age of 60) is not that common of an experience now.  Let the young people enjoy themselves!  Let the younger musicians have fun!  That just might be the point to all this...you know...entertainment?  

 

[mjazzg]

Going to see this kind of music played live in a club (by a player under the age of 60) is not that common of an experience now.  Let the young people enjoy themselves!  Let the younger musicians have fun!  That just might be the point to all this...you know...entertainment?  

 

Absolutely!

Kamasi's sold out one of London's bigger concert halls in November. It's a double header with Go Go Penguin, a acoustic piano trio (just signed to Blue Note) who are making big waves here and drawing crowds from a young demographic crossing into dance music. They're a great live experience but one that would probably upset 'the purists' out there as being too popular and populist. That' s entertainment!

[A Lark Ascending]

Going to see this kind of music played live in a club (by a player under the age of 60) is not that common of an experience now.  Let the young people enjoy themselves!  Let the younger musicians have fun!  That just might be the point to all this...you know...entertainment?  

 

Absolutely!

Kamasi's sold out one of London's bigger concert halls in November. It's a double header with Go Go Penguin, a acoustic piano trio (just signed to Blue Note) who are making big waves here and drawing crowds from a young demographic crossing into dance music. They're a great live experience but one that would probably upset 'the purists' out there as being too popular and populist. That' s entertainment!

100% to both.  

[Guy Berger]

How come Darius Jones doesn't have a wikipedia entry (that I can find, anyway)?

Looking at KW's entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamasi_Washington it appears that he has a history of intermingling with more "commercial" artists as well as more "community" jazz organizations. Maybe it's just somethng he likes to do, and maybe it's something Darius Jones doesn't like to do. Also, Gerald Wilson, Horace Tapscott, devoted to community presence, encouraging of people at least as much as "style". LA.. kinda grows its own as well as takes in others in that regard. NYC...maybe not so much?

Again, music is as much social as it is business, and vice-versa. You can't make somebody hang with and get an in with somebody they don't particularly want to be in with. And if somebody is hanging out and they get a break or two, there's no foul play, that's just life. And a group of similarly-minded individuals ending up in the same area and working together to get something going, and then it gets some traction, hey...American Dream, for real.

"Just showing up" is important, and showing up where people are just increases the odds. Know who you want to be there when you do show up, hey, there's your key to the city right there, even if finding the lock is not always a given.

 

Exactly.  And so when people complain that better artists aren't getting the same attention as KW... how many of those better artists are trying to acquire it?

[JSngry]

Or want it, even. People like to be able to pay the bills, sure, but it's ok to not have a high-profile outside of whoever it is you figure is your audience. You don't want all of THE audience, you just want to be able to find as much of YOUR audience as is possible.

To that end, really, unless otherwise prohibited by the man himself, Darius Jones should have a Wiki entry, just because.

[jazzbo]

If he wants one, coudn't/wouldn't have created one or had one created?

[sonnyhill]

It's not in English, but he does:

Darius Jones

 

 

 

[.:.impossible]

I heard him with Marty McCavitt on occasion, and with Kud (Darius Jones, Cameron Ralston, Scott Clark) at a now defunct club called Tropicalia(?) that served Jamaican food and cocktails from behind a bamboo bar to a mostly African American clientele. It was a long time ago now, so it's difficult to remember the music. I do remember being very impressed with Darius' tone. He seemed like a great guy. I wasn't living in Richmond at the time, only visiting during holidays, but there was a lot going on back then that has moved to bigger markets. A lot of guys just getting started on the journey. Someone like Peter McElhinney or Tim Harding would probably have more to say.