Thoughts on cheap, multi CD re-issues

[barnaba.siegel]

I just wanted to know what do you folks think about that kind of re-issues like from the image below. The market is full of 1, 2 and 4CD sets with 50s and early 60s sets. I guess some of them are pirate releases and some released when the copywrites expired (isn't it qute short in USA?). I'd like to have always best editions but damn, sometimes it's tempting to collect 8 albums for 10$ instead of buying each seperately.

I don't have any knowledge about sound quality, source, covers and so on - any thoughts about that too?

[mjzee]

Mostly, we consider it a momentary weakness of character to buy these. While tempting, we know no money flows to the copyright holders. We're also uncertain about the source of the masters, confident that they don't have access to the master tapes, and as such, are not the best-sounding copies around. Finally, if one wants an ongoing jazz industry (with continuing archival releases), we recognize that desire as not being compatible with buying these. Mind you, we understand the temptation (and have bought some on occasion), but recommend passing them by.

[jeffcrom]

More and more of these sets are appearing on the shelves of my favorite Atlanta CD store. I hate seeing them, but I keep my mouth shut, because every time I go in I'm kind of amazed that the place is still in business. I guess the proprietor has to do whatever he can to stay afloat.

[medjuck]

I just wanted to know what do you folks think about that kind of re-issues like from the image below. The market is full of 1, 2 and 4CD sets with 50s and early 60s sets. I guess some of them are pirate releases and some released when the copywrites expired (isn't it qute short in USA?).

Actually the copyright laws in the US are now amongst the most restrictive in the world. Even under the old copyright laws very few recordings have gone into teh public domain in the US. Almost none of these reissues are from the US and even their sale here is problematic.

[mjzee]

I just wanted to know what do you folks think about that kind of re-issues like from the image below. The market is full of 1, 2 and 4CD sets with 50s and early 60s sets. I guess some of them are pirate releases and some released when the copywrites expired (isn't it qute short in USA?).

Actually the copyright laws in the US are now amongst the most restrictive in the world. Even under the old copyright laws very few recordings have gone into teh public domain in the US. Almost none of these reissues are from the US and even their sale here is problematic.

If Amazon can sell them pretty blatantly, it's hard to say that their sale is problematic. In fact, I think Amazon is a big part of the problem: record labels are in a weakened position, and don't have the heart to challenge the dominant music retailer in the U.S.

[barnaba.siegel]

Mostly, we consider it a momentary weakness of character to buy these. While tempting, we know no money flows to the copyright holders. We're also uncertain about the source of the masters, confident that they don't have access to the master tapes, and as such, are not the best-sounding copies around. Finally, if one wants an ongoing jazz industry (with continuing archival releases), we recognize that desire as not being compatible with buying these. Mind you, we understand the temptation (and have bought some on occasion), but recommend passing them by.

"We (...) you" - that sounds pretty scary

So that's as I though - unofficial crap not worth buying. I ordered one set just to check how it look and sounds, but cheap editions isn't anything fancy for me.

But I'm rather disgusting seeing all those cult albums by Dexter Gordon, Miles or Coltrane laying around in shops. For sure many people will buy it without knowing something is wrong.

Any really bad experience with sound quality of those pirate editions?

Edited May 4, 2015 by barnaba.siegel

[JSngry]

Easy Guideline-

Use the whole "i only stole the can of tunafish because my baby was crying at 3 AM and there was NO OTHER WAY" as your baseline.

If that's really how it is, then ok, you get a pass in my book. If you can prove that, you'll want me on your jury, believe it.

Anything past that, not so much. especially if the following questions are not self-directed:

1. What the hell am I doing feeding my baby tunafish?
2. Why did I wait until 3AM to steal a can of tunafish?
3. Don't my neighbors got no tunafish I can steal and/or borrow?
4. Did I check the expiration date on the tunafish to make sure I wasn't gonna give my baby no tainted ass tunafish before or after I stole it?
5. Did I check the expiration date on the tunafish to make sure I wasn't gonna give my baby no tainted ass tunafish AT ALL?
6. Am I really thinking this through, any of it, all of it or is this shit gonna continue to be the deal EVERY damn night at 3AM in the morning?
7. Can I get a better job?
8. Can my old lady get a better job?
9. Can my 3AM In The Morning Cryingass BABY get a job, or at least work up less of an appetite?
10. Why tunafish in the first place, huh?

The less of these questions that are self-directed and/or the longer it takes for them to come, the less you gonna want me on your jury.

Hope this helps.

[jlhoots]

"We're" not supposed to buy these.

However, I'll admit once or twice I have.

[GA Russell]

Wait!

These responses have been about the morality of an American purchasing a European public domain compact disc.

Barnaba is a European, a Pole, so the morality of American law is irrelevant.

I think that those who know should be discussing which European labels have reputations for issuing high fidelity PD CDs, and which labels are known for poor quality PD CDs.

Barnaba, the label of the Art Blakey release you cite is Real Gone, whose reputation is not particularly good.

I'm sure that there are some here who can recommend companies which do a better job.

[AllenLowe]

1) I have a whole bunch of the above; 90 percent are in very good sound - meaning, when they could, they just made a clone of CDs that were available - there is one of two that really suck but most that I have heard are good.

2) there is another label doing same with Giuffre and some others -- the ones I've heard are major crap-ups of good original sound; I don't know if they were working from LPs or what, but they did something. Could even be bad converters; most of the Giuffre is horrible.

all of this makes you appreciate Fresh Sound, which usually gets it right, sonically speaking.

but all in all they often pull in things you CANNOT get anywhere else. I especially have needed these, as I am trying to finish my book on '50s jazz.

Edited May 5, 2015 by AllenLowe

[barnaba.siegel]

Wow, that extended tunafish line killed me. Unnecessary.

As I wrote before, I'm aware that those kind of releases are not the official ones. I'm curious about sound quality, the edition quality and also if any of those are actually legal - it's not that obvious.

Wounded Bird Records, for example, releases very cheap-looking CD's with great music, but as far as I know, they're buying rights to do that (mostly from Sony). So again - it's not that obvious.

Just to make things straight - the reasons I started the topic are mentioned above, I don't encourage anyone to buy it or break a local law.

Thanks AllenLowe - that's what I wanted to know.

Edited May 5, 2015 by barnaba.siegel

[JSngry]

Wow, that extended tunafish line killed me. Unnecessary.

Exactly - that's why you should always look at the expiration date before opening the can.

but all in all they often pull in things you CANNOT get anywhere else.

And yet...they can get them?

[ArtSalt]

Those series are popular over here and I admit, I puchased the Bill Evans, Milestone release of the Riverside albums. Awful sound, truly 'orrible and unimpressive. However, I notice there's four volumes of Les Baxter albums, which would be worth buying for an exotica kick knowing that you are likely to listen to it once or twice and that you won't get all the albums elsewhere on official CD releases.

[sgcim]

I had to pay my favorite hooker to put me in a strait jacket so I would be restrained from buying the four or five CD Tubby Hayes set for only $8 being offered here, but now I know I did the right thing...

[king ubu]

I stay away from them (gave in just once, a three or four albums on two discs set by Kenyon Hopkins, years ago when these just started to appear) ... but wanted to add that I guess Allen's first point might well be the case (no idea if they run any filters and stuff, as is done with many cheapo classical thingies which look like crap, sound like crap ... and cost crap) and that of course makes these releases illegal in Europe as well. Now you may think making that distinction is academic (and I return: fegh you), but it's not legal at all to copy anything that's been out just a few years ... legal would be to hunt original releases (older than 50 years) and make your own transfers of those. That was the operating model of the Chrono(lo)gical Classics, and I understand it's the operating model of Avid as well (they look ugly but I kinda like them). And even Proper have to be given props for actually leaving off the CD-era bonustracks from "Tubby in New York" when they did their second Tubby Hayes set - these tracks only appeared 20 some years back and are not public domain.

Not sure how Fresh Sound does this, but yes, compared to the labels being discussed here (and compared to plenty snazzy looking other Spanish reissues by fungi such as "American Jazz Classics", "Poll Winner Records", "Essential Jazz Classics" and what have you) they do look quite like the real deal indeed.

[erwbol]

I HATE these sets. They are ruining the few remaining record stores with a sizeable jazz department.

If you absolutely need to hear music that is otherwise unavailable, why not use bittorrent as a temporary stopgap?

[Big Beat Steve]

As a European, I have to say THANKS to GA Russell and Allen Lowe for putting some sense into this overly (overtly?) US-centric morality debate (which was obvious was going to start on topic like THIS) and to King Ubu for making the fine line between copying recently remastered and reissued music as a ripoff and rather making unavailable P.D. music available again (but putting your own production efforts into it).

As for all the other morality points raised - sorry I won't buy into that all the way, as long as the music we are talking about is rightfully in the P.D. in THOSE countries where the reissue is produced (and any music which was out by early 1962 will remain in P.D. in Europe, the new European law does NOT apply retroactively - it just came in time to prevent the Beatles from going P.D.). And if these reissues are unlaweful for sale in the US is of no concern to European buyers. Besides, judging by the fine print on the CDs in question, quite a few of those oh so cherished Japanese reissues are also "Not licensed for Sale outside Japan", yet many, many U.S. collectors are all over them and tout them as the next best thing to Manna from heaven. Not really honest all the way either ...

Like King Ubu said: Fresh Sound does not fare too badly, particularly since they reissue many items nobody else has ever bothere about (i.e they really fill gaps in what once was there and has been OOP for a LONG time, though I don't like many of their 2 LP on 1 CD combinations of one easily available item and one obscure item). But OTOH I cannot feel that Proper, for example, always really is THAT "proper" if U.S. morality/legality yardsticks were applied throughout. How come their "theme" box sets often rely that heavily and obviously on the same material that had only recently been out on other reissues on other labels? And this even though lots of other material waiting to be reissued at all (that would have fit the same theme) still is out there? Looks like "an easy way out" programming approach (maybe use a decent/already remastered sounding source to start with and then do some (re-)remastering/polishing up to be able to say it was all remastered by you??) and another "holier than thou" case if you tout them too loudly.

Overall my stance on this is more a case of being realistic about it all: See if you can find a fairly priced (and ACCESSIBLE!) and well-produced reissue first. (One reason I never would buy any of those ripoff re-reissue clones of the Uptown releases, for ex.) But if you can't, check if you find the sonic quality, the presentation and the compilation acceptable for the price (if only as a platter to take along for the CD player in your car, which was how I handled it when I bought this or that budget P.D. box set for 2 or 3 items I REALLY wanted though I already had the other 4 or 5). It's all a tradeoff betwen quality and price. And as long as the music is rightfully in the P.D. in the country where you buy it, what's the point of worrying about royalties? Sure it would be fine if you could find and support a label where it would be PROVEN that the artists would still be getting royalties for music that has entered the P.D. but would these artists really still be getting royalties today if the P.D. music were "officially" reissued on a major label? I doubt it. Particularly in ALL those cases where it is a known historical fact that the original artists were cheated out of their royalties back when the recordings were made. To this day major labels can be pretty smartassed retreating to the fine print of contracts signed decades ago (no matter how doubtful they are by today's standards). Cf. Arthur Crudup's (eventually unsuccessful) battle with RCA in his final years.

And what remains, then? Greasing the palms of the multinational conglomerates who hold the "rights" to that P.D. music now? Aw well ...

Edited May 5, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[paul secor]

I see these sets as answers to someone who says, "I want it all, I want it now, I want it cheap, and I don't care how." But that's just me.

[Big Beat Steve]

You'll never have it all, no matter what you want and how much you want it.

However, these sets might also be seen as an attempt of an answer to those who say "Before we even CONSIDER doing something for the collectors who want to listen to what we once also had in our sales catalogs way back we first need to make MORE BIG money from our big-selling items for the masses another ZILLION times!" But that's just me.

And no, I wouldn't understand either why anybody would go for those cheapo ripoff sets if decent and "normally" priced and well-produced reissues are around (and not just some flash in the pan, difficult to order Japanese reissue that goes OOP after 4 weeks), but I do understand those who'd go for the Gigi Gryce set, for example (I am tempted myself) of the series shown by the thread starter because AFAIK that set has one or two LPs the CD reissues of which (if available at all) go for insane prices per copy which are way higher than what that entire box set costs. Blame it on the profiteers ...

[colinmce]

I see these sets as answers to someone who says, "I want it all, I want it now, I want it cheap, and I don't care how." But that's just me.

You're correct.

I bought the Lou Donaldson one. I like these albums enough to want to hear them sometimes, but not enough to shell out for OOP Japanese CDs or the OOP Mosaic. I have seen a few others that look tempting, but I don't plan on getting any more. For one thing, the music is just there in a big mass which makes it difficult to sort out what you're listening to; plus the contents are misidentified in the "notes". Beyond the ethical concerns, this is what makes these types of sets a poor experience in my book.

[jcam_44]

I had purchased the Gigi Gryce one. Sounded terrible. Got rid of it.

[Big Beat Steve]

Good to know, Jcam. Probably not worth it, then, for those 1 or 2 otherwise rare discs.

[king ubu]

Oh, I'm with you on Proper, Big Beat Steve!

I guess it's really on case-by-case ground that this needs to be addressed - Simon Spillett seems to have done these Tubby sets, and they're fine. Other than that, I have mostly no interest in Proper whatsoever (how the hell could they have laid hands on all the original Joe Harriott material?), but bought the Webster and Tatum sets for some missing items here and there, many moons ago ... that's the trade-off aspect.

And I couldn't agree more about the nuisance that Fresh Sound's combination policy is - I really hate them for doing that. HOWEVER, in the bigger scheme of things, after all, they do plenty of nice reissues. I just got their Bill Jennings 2CD set yesterday - claims to hold a couple of prev. unissued King (also Audio Lab, I think - no idea about the possible relation between the two) tracks. If that's true, I guess their not having been released within the 50 years made them PD 50 years after the sessions (latest 2007), but even more so, it begs the question how and where from they got those (similar case: Lone Hill's John La Porta 2CD set - mighty good one, with a totally superfluous duplication of half the Fantasy disc "Theme and Variations" ... HOWEVER they did not - even if only for time limitations - include the session that made its first appearance on that CD ... not sure if that was within the 50 years and hence copy rights only started running then, or if the material was PD because Fantasy had slept on it for too long).

Oh, and the Gryce set was discussed long and far here, it actually prompted another of these threads with some taking higher moral grounds and stuff ... but bottom line was: it is crap, it even holds tracks that won't copy/read on computer drives or would produce errors. Also, the only item of real interest it holds is "Reminiscin'", which shortly after did make a reapparance in Japan, so ...

[Big Beat Steve]

I know Fresh Sound have explicitly concluded deals with a number of original labels/owners for reissuing their material, going back to their LP reissue era (they would not get away legally if their statements to the effect of "released/pressed by agreement with ..." were outright false. That would place them too far on a limb, legally speaking.) A clear case among their CD reissues is the NOCTURNE label box set, for example. As far as I can see these deals don't cover all they reissue so Fresh Sound obviously does take advantage of the European 50-year Public Domain laws but OTOH quite a bit of the swiping, generalizing accusations raised against them and their subsidiaries to me seem to be levied against them by people who think along the lines of "Oh it cannot be that over there they reissue all this stuff that nobody back home has ever reissued. That cannot be and it is not for them to step in and reissue these items at all!"

Edited May 6, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[Hot Ptah]

I HATE these sets. They are ruining the few remaining record stores with a sizeable jazz department.

If you absolutely need to hear music that is otherwise unavailable, why not use bittorrent as a temporary stopgap?

Where are these remaining record stores with a sizable jazz department? Seriously, I would like to know. I have recently visited some of the big name stores of the past and noticed that they do not have a very large selection any more.