Ornette Coleman - Beauty is a Rare Thing (2015)

[paul secor]

They're not separate entities, but when discussion of sound quality trumps discussion of the music, there's something wrong.

[Scott Dolan]

What Paul said.

There are rare exceptions like Olatunji Concert, where the music is out of this world, but the sound quality is so horrendous that it's difficult to revisit.

[hbbfam]

They're not separate entities, but when discussion of sound quality trumps discussion of the music, there's something wrong.

One does not trump the other. When it comes to many of these artists, the only issue is the quality of the release. For example, i own much of the Charlie Parker Dial on the 8 CD Dial and Savoy Box. I am on the fence regarding the new Mosaic Dial Box. I already have all of the Parker Dial, but not some of the others on this set. But what has convinced me to get the box is that many have said this is a sonic upgrade.

How many times have I jumped on a remaster (we know I liked the music) only to find out that it was compressed, loud, etc.

One does not trump the other. They are not mutually exclusive.

In any event I am new to this forum, and have really enjoyed the conversations.

[erwbol]

Well, the occasion for this thread is the reissue of a long OOP but still coveted box set with 25 years old mastering and a reputation for comparatively good sound quality. Naturally there will be concerns about which route to take.

The music itself has been discussed many times before in other threads.

[paul secor]

I guess my point is that there are certain people here who post much more often on sound quality than they post about the music.

[hbbfam]

I guess my point is that there are certain people here who post much more often on sound quality than they post about the music.

It becomes a process for me. First I discover (often through these forums) music that I want. Then it becomes a quest for what is presumably the best source to hear it. Using the Coleman box as an example, most of the music is available on individual CDs. The box has outtakes, as good or better sound than most of the CDs, but the music (like many box sets) is chronological and not always in the order that was on the albums. All of these factors are relevant.

[CJ Shearn]

Late, do you also have the Change of the Century SHM, WQCP 1081? Is it of similar quality?

I don't. For that title, I have the 24-bit mini-LP edition. Sounds pretty good.

(By the way, note to the forum: I need to correct myself. "The Fifth of Beethoven" = "Little Symphony." Not as I stated above.)

Bottom line — I think we all love Ornette's Atlantic work (well, mostly!), and this 2015 reissued box set is a good thing. How we accumulate each title, in the end, doesn't of course really matter. We'll all find an edition we're happy with. Listening is what counts! Those recordings continue to be fresh to this day. Damn that warehouse fire!

Right!! the music is incredible and I enjoy the original boxset just fine.

[AllenLowe]

I will mention, in the spirit of sound, that there was one engineer, at Rhino, who did a lot of Atlantic reissue work (I don't know his name, and he did this work for not only Rhino but some other labels) who botched a whole lot of the Atlantics with weird, hiss-reduction artifacts. Whoever this guy is or was, we need to find him and put him away for good.

[jlhoots]

The original box set is fine with me.

Edited March 21, 2015 by jlhoots

[AllenLowe]

to put him away in?

[Scott Dolan]

I am new to this forum, and have been a long time member of SH forum. There are two primary aspects to that forum, and presumably this forum as well.

It becomes a process for me. First I discover (often through these forums) music that I want.

Wow! Isn't that interesting!

[hbbfam]

I am new to this forum, and have been a long time member of SH forum. There are two primary aspects to that forum, and presumably this forum as well.

It becomes a process for me. First I discover (often through these forums) music that I want.

Wow! Isn't that interesting!

I am glad you appreciated it. Do you have a different method?

[JSngry]

There are rare exceptions like Olatunji Concert, where the music is out of this world, but the sound quality is so horrendous that it's difficult to revisit.

That's a matter of individual tolerance/expectaions/whatever. The first Bird I heard was an Everest LP of airshots, and at the time (age 15 or so), all i know was The Race For Amazing HifistereoquaroPHONIC sound, so that one was, uh....unexpected. But about the 3rd time through, it was ok and its only gotten better. Later, somewhat cleaner issues of the same material sounded funny to me, actually, I was straining to hear the noise, that's how much of a compensation mechanism I had developed! One of those things that is both inspiring and depressing.

The future would hold some far rougher things than that...especially when a window to the "collector's circles" opened...Olantunji is pretty listenable to me, rough, but listenable, what IS there is discernable, and that's all I really ask out of things like that, I've revisited it more than once. About the only thing I do not want to revisit is The Bird You Never Heard Vol. 2. That one...brrrrr.....and grrrrr....Airshots in rough sound, ok. Airshots in rough sound that fade in and out due to long-distance radio reception issues, not so much.That one...brrrrr.....and grrrrr....Bird with Dizzy's big band, WhOA!!! just...when does the music begin and the indistinct roaring end? That IS the music? Prove it!

And the one thing that is so rough you can't really visit it to begin with is that Joe Brazil jam with Trane & Joe, that thing. Sad. really. Too far gone. Let's hope there's a cleaner copy laying around in somebody's atticcloset/haybarn/wherever it is these things miraculously turn up. I don't think that even the andorrans have touched it yet, which should tell you that even they got SOME priciples.

Otherwise, I'm at the point now where I do so much subconscious listening (within genres with which I'm pretty familiar), that "sound quality" is not nearly as much a consideration as is just can I hear the damn thing at all in the room I'm in. If I can, hey, we can take it from there if need be. I hope to someday be afforded the luxury of being able to do enough listening to records in isolation to where audio quality becomes a sway factor. Right now, within reasonable boundaries, I don't/can't really think about it, even when the time comes. I'm just happy when I can replace a decaying cassette with a Cd or an LP, even a blog-level MP3. That's how far out of this loop I am right now.

But really, revisitng Olantunji is worth the effort, the music is there (enough), and it is strong (the bite of the lo-fi actually intensifies Pharoah, I think, which in its own weird way speaks more to the impact of hearing this guy right in your face like you probably did at the gig than would a cleaner source, Pharoah at this stage was definitely an in your face player with a message to match). This I do believe.

As for the Ornette box, I kinda took a hit in the wallet to get it when it was out the first time, money was tight then, real tight. However, I have had no regrets at all since, if living well is its own reward, then owning this set must be a form of living well.

[Scott Dolan]

I am new to this forum, and have been a long time member of SH forum. There are two primary aspects to that forum, and presumably this forum as well.

It becomes a process for me. First I discover (often through these forums) music that I want.

Wow! Isn't that interesting!

I am glad you appreciated it. Do you have a different method?

No, I'm just amazed that since you've announced that you're "new here" (twice, for good measure) that you often use these forums to discover new music. Must have just started discovering new music, I guess?

There are rare exceptions like Olatunji Concert, where the music is out of this world, but the sound quality is so horrendous that it's difficult to revisit.

That's a matter of individual tolerance/expectaions/whatever.

Have you listened to Olatunji Concert? Because everything you stated after what I quoted doesn't apply to it. Even a little bit. It sounds like it was recorded with a Fisher Price mic at the end of it's life span.

Or, as the AMG review put it: "...it also gives the average collector a taste of what the maniacal collector goes out of their way to find, as the sound quality is on the level of a sub-par bootleg."

And that's being kind.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Scott Dolan

[JSngry]

Like AMG siad:

.it also gives the average collector a taste of what the maniacal collector goes out of their way to find, as the sound quality is on the level of a sub-par bootleg."

"

This is true, just as it's true that the sound of a "sub-par" bootleg is in no way the worst possible sound available once you get into the world of bootlegs.

I can get how there are many who have no incentive to get into listening to that type of recording. Me, I took the plunge a while back, and really, once in, never completely out.

If Olantunji sounds that awful to you, it might be because you've not heard enough things that sound worse to have an awareness of just how bad "bad" can get. You're probably thankful for that, and you probably should be. But just as your cross to bear in this life is having seen 37 itty-bitty Boston Babies eaten alive by feral hogs in an empty Ocala swimming pool, mine is to have listened to some of the godawfullest uglysounding live recordings of great musicever made. As with you, I've learned to go towards the light, and to wade through the darkness on my way to it. But that kind of thing leaves scars that never really heal. Surely you can relate.

Sidenote - why would you ask me if had I listened to the Olantunji concert? Of course I have, and many times over.

[Scott Dolan]

But why would I even be interested in "how bad it can get"?

That's the thing. There is way too much well recorded music in existence to bother finding out "how bad it can get".

I love football, but if I had to watch the Superbowl on a snowy, 7" black and white tv with a cantankerous vertical hold, I'd find something else to do that evening.

Same thing.

I don't buy bootlegs, and for very good reason. The worst part being that they dressed up that mess in a fancy Impulse! package, which certainly fooled me.

[JSngry]

So you got fooled. Run away while you can and don't look back.Be one of the lucky ones.

[JSngry]

I love football, but if I had to watch the Superbowl on a snowy, 7" black and white tv with a cantankerous vertical hold, I'd find something else to do that evening.

I guess using that TV as a radio would not be an option.

Been there, more or less, one year. No heat other than the stovetop, draftyass windows, not much food, screen a bit bigger than 7", cold day, but hell the thing had some kind of picture and it DID make a sound. So I followed the game, It was Steelers vs Cowboys, good game, Cowboys lost, my Belgian drummer roommate didn't understand why I wasn't pulling for Dallas, I didn't try to explain, it was too cold. This other guy showed up with a can of Baldinger's Chopped Chicken Livers. He was from New York and thought that was the right thing to bring to a party. I don't really like liver, but that Baldinger's was not bad, I will admit.

[Scott Dolan]

Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure that was the last Impulse! title I ever bought! Perhaps there are some emotional scars there I wasn't consciously aware of.

I love football, but if I had to watch the Superbowl on a snowy, 7" black and white tv with a cantankerous vertical hold, I'd find something else to do that evening.

I guess using that TV as a radio would not be an option.

Been there, more or less, one year. No heat other than the stovetop, draftyass windows, not much food, screen a bit bigger than 7", cold day, but hell the thing had some kind of picture and it DID make a sound. So I followed the game, It was Steelers vs Cowboys, good game, Cowboys lost, my Belgian drummer roommate didn't understand why I wasn't pulling for Dallas, I didn't try to explain, it was too cold. This other guy showed up with a can of Baldinger's Chopped Chicken Livers. He was from New York and thought that was the right thing to bring to a party. I don't really like liver, but that Baldinger's was not bad, I will admit.

When my wife and I first moved in together the only tv we owned was a 7" inch black and white. It was so small that we actually put it on the bottom shelf and sat on the floor right in front of it to watch it.

Kinda surreal that I'm posting this from my iPad, which has a screen three inches bigger than that old TV.

[danasgoodstuff]

Beauty is a Rare Thing lives up to its name, and sounds about as good as any jazz recorded for Atlantic in that era is ever gonna sound and the organization works for me. I too have a high tolerance for iffy sound quality in the right circumstances - Ole Tune Gee didn't do it for me but Temple U did and as a point of comparison I think Magic Sam @ the Alex Club, Howlin' Wolf @ Cambridge and Clifford Brown The Beginning & the End are some of the most valuable documents of amazing music out there. Some music cuts through bad sound better than others - not sure I can articulate why, there are things that don't work for me due to bad sound, I've heard a lot of boots 'n broadcasts and it's always a balancing act but the tippin' point is not very predictable, YMMV, etc.

Edited March 21, 2015 by danasgoodstuff

[.:.impossible]

Welcome hbbfam.

[Clunky]

Welcome hbbfam.

Indeed , welcome !

[Justin V]

I don't understand the choice between building a collection and attending concerts, as if the two are mutually exclusive avenues. Once your collection gets to a certain size, it becomes impossible to regularly listen to everything. Most of us have probably reached that point. I can't imagine forgoing attending concerts just to add to the pile of music that I won't be able to listen to nearly enough. If it were a purely financial decision, I'd stop buying albums outside of concerts (I consider buying music at concerts as being part of the overall experience).

Speaking for myself, I tend to shop in the bargain bins for older releases and splurge on pricier items when I get a financial windfall. The majority of the newly released albums I purchase are a result of participating in Kickstarter campaigns and directly from musicians at gigs. I frankly don't understand the obsession with re-buying the latest edition of everything unless the new reissue contains bonus material or a prior botched issue has been improved; there is too much music out there that I haven't heard.

As I don't own all of the Ornette Atlantic material, this is a welcome reissue. Even if I did own the prior edition, I'll gladly welcome anything that's intended to commemorate his birthday or otherwise celebrate the man and his music.

[Scott Dolan]

It's called a completist fetish, Justin.

I don't get it either, but we all have our quirks, I suppose.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Scott Dolan

[clifford_thornton]

The LPs of this material sound good to great. I think I heard the old boxed set at my aunt's house - she's very hip - as well, and noticed no issues with sound on a good stereo.

To Steve's question, as I see it Blackwell definitely had more of a Max Roach thing going, melded with Afro-Caribbean rhythms, and that gives the music a slightly different flavor than what Higgins put forth (although I believe Higgins did take some lessons from Blackwell, to me he sounds a bit more like Kenny Clarke). They're both super clean drummers but with different kinds of clean. To me, however, what ultimately altered the movement of the quartet most was the revolving cast of bassists - Haden, LaFaro, Garrison, all very different. Surely someone has a better analysis than what I feel like typing up right now... calling ep1str0phy!

Listening to "Ramblin'" now and with all due respect to label owners and musicians on this board who've created some truly great art, it is also VERY hard for me to think of anything more musically perfect than this.