Ornette Coleman - Beauty is a Rare Thing (2015)

[Scott Dolan]

Interesting, indeed.

Perhaps I'm not remembering it correctly. I'll have to revisit my collection of Atlantic's and Columbia's from that period. I'll readily admit I haven't listened to much of either recently.

Perhaps the tape hiss still present on Kind Of Blue is clouding my judgement…

[jazzbo]

I think we've done this discussion before Erwin, I don't hear the Atlantics that way, and I have a flexible system that I have tweaked somewhat to de-emphasize treble on digital discs, so that may be why. They sound really good to me on my system on speakers (don't do headphones).

I hear a lot more tape hiss on Atlantic sides than Columbia. And hearing tape hiss is better than having it scrubbed off with a digital program to my ears.

Edited March 13, 2015 by jazzbo

[erwbol]

I think we've done this discussion before Erwin, I don't hear the Atlantics that way, and I have a flexible system that I have tweaked somewhat to de-emphasize treble on digital discs, so that may be why. They sound really good to me on my system on speakers (don't do headphones).

I have a pair of speakers now, but I always found a good set of headphones can be very helpful when comparing different CD editions.

And sure, we've been over this before. I just find it so puzzling people like these Japanese Atlantics, because they sound so blatantly manipulated to my ears. I mean, the Bethlehems from Japan like East Coasting were loud, but otherwise sounded good. When on speakers this loudness is less of an issue, but white hot treble is just that.

Edited March 13, 2015 by erwbol

[jazzbo]

Well, and from the other standpoint, it puzzles me how vehement others get about this sort of release because my system just doesn't present me with the same issues (I guess). I hear really well still (surprises me every time I get my hearing tested) and I'm actually quite sensitive to treble grain and some high frequencies are really hard to hear. But I have an amp that has a treble cut circuit (outside the signal path, shunts high frequency to ground to varying degrees) and I can control the tweeters on my speakers with resistors, and I roll tubes to get a nice balance (I can roll input, power, voltage regulation and voltage rectification tubes). Also I have to say, getting a power regenerator really helped my system out tonal balance wise. Having played around with this sort of tailoring for years I now worry a lot less about the mastering of a cd, I pop it in and sit back and relax, tweak a bit if I feel the need. Have to say, that's nice!

I feel even more fortunate when I read the problems others have with this or that series and their mastering. I'll start counting more blessings!

Edited March 13, 2015 by jazzbo

[erwbol]

I guess others are just better endowed in the organic and electronic departments. That's cool.

[jazzbo]

I don't see it that way to be honest. I've had decades to dedicate my money to equipment and that has been my big vice, stereo equipment and recordings. If I could start at the end, I could have saved myself probably over half the money that I spent as I've learned more what I like and need in musical playback and learned how to get there more by trial and error than guided direction. But that too is part of the fun. One thing that is beneficial about coming to a certain age is that if you're lucky you've discovered your taste and tolerances and developed a support for them. The trick then is to still be open and not stagnant. My whole system is going to be moved to a new home in half a year so I expect change and can hope for improvement. (I'm so tired of listening near field, for one thing, and can expect a room three times as large to fill).

I'm personally glad I found that flexibility is a virtue. I jumped on this "tone controls are terrible" bandwagon and rode for a long time but jumped off when I learned how beneficial well done tonal control can be. Went way the other way for a while and wish I hadn't.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there and this is not really a board where equipment is a focus. I'll just add my voice to those suggesting anyone who does not have a lot of the Ornette recordings consider this new box set as it has very good sound, awesome music, good notes, and a great price.

[Late]

Question: have the six tracks that at the time of original release were previously unreleased been released elsewhere since?

"The Tribes of New York"

"Rise and Shine"

"Mr. and Mrs. People"

"I Heard It Over the Radio"

"Revolving Doors"

I have everything else from the set on disc but am considering picking up the box for many of the reasons people above have mentioned, but also for six whole new-to-me tracks!

You'll want those tracks, though a few are actually different takes of compositions you'll already know, while given a different title. Going by memory, for example:

• "The Tribes of New York" = "Little Symphony"

There are one or two others like this. Somebody will jump in with corrections.

"I Heard It Over The Radio" and "Mr. and Mrs. People" are two of the most beautiful tracks in the box, in my opinion. When I first heard them (now twenty years ago, egad), I was surprised that they were passed over in favor of other tracks for album inclusion.

Perhaps the Ornette's are better than the other Japanese Atlantics?

I'd actually have to say that this is true. I get what you're saying about the pumped up quality of a lot of these Japanese Atlantic remasters — I immediately sold off a number of them upon hearing them. Despite this, the Ornette titles actually sound good, at least to me. There's more presence, on my system, than on the old 1993 remastered set, which, as Scott mentions, is pretty darn good to begin with. I did sell my box set, however, after purchasing most of the Japanese titles. I like to listen to the Atlantic sessions in album order rather than chronological order, and with what I consider better sound, I parted with the box set (even though I had to save files of the songs Xybert mentioned).

I haven't heard the Grundman SACD. I'd like to. For that title, I have the old Japanese 20-bit AMCY remaster, which sounds good, and has a fair amount of transparency, though I'm sure the Grundman edition is superior.

For lovers of This Is Our Music, take note — there is actually a Japanese SHM-CD remaster of this title out there. It's superior, sonically, to the recent Japanese 24-bit remaster (well, I think it is), to the box set, and to the Sepia Tone reissue. Its catalog # is: WQCP 1082. It seems to have been reissued with little fanfare (2011), and I stumbled upon it by accident. One catch — infuriatingly, the cover art (so beautiful and iconic) was botched. It's still the same cover, but the colors are faded and blurred. The disc itself, and the transfer that resides in it, is however amazing. "Lifelike" would be the first word I'd use.

[erwbol]

Perhaps I'll reluctantly try some of the Ornettes. Maybe the SHM of This Is Our Music. I did used to own a SHM-CD of Giant Steps from around that time and didn't like it, but we'll see.

Edited March 14, 2015 by erwbol

[RiRiIII]

Well, being Japanese cd issues. . . they're out there. And then not. Frustrating. I have been buying a lot of these releases because they are limited and they all sound better than other issues I have of the material on digital, especially better than Collectables releases. They released two of the very first lps I ever owned (Charles Bell and the Contemporary Jazz Quartet "Another Dimension"/Leo Wright "Blues Shout") which sound wonderful and really surprised me that they would be released early on in that series. Because I collect them I got all the Mingus and Coltrane off the bat and have been getting more as time goes by. This also allows me to give away other issues of the material to my jazz-loving brother and other jazz newbies.

Interesting. . .I find Atlantic recordings to sort of be all over the map in quality, and find Columbia releases to be of consistent (and imo better) quality generally during this time period.

Thanks for mentioning them. For the past years all my cdjapan orders include one or two from these Atlantic/Warner Jazz/R&B 1000 yen releases. Joe Turner's 3 Atlantic recs arrived yesterday [and they do sound great] along with Champion Jack Duprees' masterpiece "Blue from the Gutter" [never reissued on CD by Atlantic I think]... But back to Ornette now - order or not order? We know the answer.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Alexandros

[Clunky]

Played all my Coleman Atlantics last night . 9 discs from 7 different reissue series . All sounded just fine once immersed in the music. Top performer would be Atlantic Original Sound 50th anniversary of "This is our music." mastered in Switzerland , Atlantic Masters digipak of -"Twins " was the poorest with "First Take" sounding muddy by comparison to the version on the toilet roll digipak of "Free Jazz"

[erwbol]

Played all my Coleman Atlantics last night . 9 discs from 7 different reissue series . All sounded just fine once immersed in the music. Top performer would be Atlantic Original Sound 50th anniversary of "This is our music." mastered in Switzerland , Atlantic Masters digipak of -"Twins " was the poorest with "First Take" sounding muddy by comparison to the version on the toilet roll digipak of "Free Jazz"

Clunky, are you sure? You need one or more $60.000 systems, Superman like super hearing, and incontinence diapers to make sense of the Atlantic Jazz catalogue on digital. But if the diaper fits ...

[Clunky]

Played all my Coleman Atlantics last night . 9 discs from 7 different reissue series . All sounded just fine once immersed in the music. Top performer would be Atlantic Original Sound 50th anniversary of "This is our music." mastered in Switzerland , Atlantic Masters digipak of -"Twins " was the poorest with "First Take" sounding muddy by comparison to the version on the toilet roll digipak of "Free Jazz"

Clunky, are you sure? You need one or more $60.000 systems, Superman like super hearing, and incontinence diapers to make sense of the Atlantic Jazz catalogue on digital. But if the diaper fits ...

Like I said all sounded good enough but I don't have multiple versions other than just a few tracks duplicated. Certainly Atlantic reissues are a real mess 6 of the 7 editions I have are European or US , so who knows how many there have been when you include Japanese editions.

[jazzbo]

Played all my Coleman Atlantics last night . 9 discs from 7 different reissue series . All sounded just fine once immersed in the music. Top performer would be Atlantic Original Sound 50th anniversary of "This is our music." mastered in Switzerland , Atlantic Masters digipak of -"Twins " was the poorest with "First Take" sounding muddy by comparison to the version on the toilet roll digipak of "Free Jazz"

Clunky, are you sure? You need one or more $60.000 systems, Superman like super hearing, and incontinence diapers to make sense of the Atlantic Jazz catalogue on digital. But if the diaper fits ...

Thanks for the insult! I'll return the favor one day.

[erwbol]

For lovers of This Is Our Music, take note — there is actually a Japanese SHM-CD remaster of this title out there. It's superior, sonically, to the recent Japanese 24-bit remaster (well, I think it is), to the box set, and to the Sepia Tone reissue. Its catalog # is: WQCP 1082. It seems to have been reissued with little fanfare (2011), and I stumbled upon it by accident. One catch — infuriatingly, the cover art (so beautiful and iconic) was botched. It's still the same cover, but the colors are faded and blurred. The disc itself, and the transfer that resides in it, is however amazing. "Lifelike" would be the first word I'd use.

Late, do you also have the Change of the Century SHM, WQCP 1081? Is it of similar quality?

[RiRiIII]

IMO if you want to know how good The Shape Of Jazz To Come can sound in the digital domain try the ORG Music hybrid SACD mastered by Bernie Grundman. Seriously, I'll eat my shoes if these Japanese discs sound better.

I have that SACD. SACDs sound better than redbook cds, I haven't compared the redbook layers. But the Warner Japan cd sounds very very good imo.

Scott, all I can say is that I was surprised by the improved sonics, and decided they were significant enough for this important muisc to collect the Japanese cds. I think it's a larger improvement than you may think on my system and with my ears, but only your listening could define that for you. And nothing to worry about if you have the music, I just enjoy these comparisons and having improved sound.

Lon, I have the 2007 Atlantic 60th WPCR-25109 mini-lp "The Shapes of Things to Come" CD carrying the "2006 24 bit" remastering - is it possible to identinfy if the recent 1000 yen Warner/Japan carries the same remastering?

[Late]

Late, do you also have the Change of the Century SHM, WQCP 1081? Is it of similar quality?

I don't. For that title, I have the 24-bit mini-LP edition. Sounds pretty good.

(By the way, note to the forum: I need to correct myself. "The Fifth of Beethoven" = "Little Symphony." Not as I stated above.)

Bottom line — I think we all love Ornette's Atlantic work (well, mostly!), and this 2015 reissued box set is a good thing. How we accumulate each title, in the end, doesn't of course really matter. We'll all find an edition we're happy with. Listening is what counts! Those recordings continue to be fresh to this day. Damn that warehouse fire!

[RiRiIII]

IMO if you want to know how good The Shape Of Jazz To Come can sound in the digital domain try the ORG Music hybrid SACD mastered by Bernie Grundman. Seriously, I'll eat my shoes if these Japanese discs sound better.

I have that SACD. SACDs sound better than redbook cds, I haven't compared the redbook layers. But the Warner Japan cd sounds very very good imo.

Scott, all I can say is that I was surprised by the improved sonics, and decided they were significant enough for this important muisc to collect the Japanese cds. I think it's a larger improvement than you may think on my system and with my ears, but only your listening could define that for you. And nothing to worry about if you have the music, I just enjoy these comparisons and having improved sound.

Lon, I have the 2007 Atlantic 60th WPCR-25109 mini-lp "The Shapes of Things to Come" CD carrying the "2006 24 bit" remastering - is it possible to identinfy if the recent 1000 yen Warner/Japan carries the same remastering?

For identification purposes, the DR values of the 2007 mini-lp cd as above are as follows:

foobar2000 1.2.9 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2015-03-14 20:25:45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: Ornette Coleman / The Shape of Jazz to Come +2 WPCR-25109

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -0.01 dB -14.83 dB 5:01 01-Lonely Woman

DR11 -0.01 dB -13.80 dB 4:23 02-Eventually

DR14 0.00 dB -17.64 dB 9:07 03-Peace

DR14 0.00 dB -17.44 dB 6:53 04-Focus on Sanity

DR12 0.00 dB -14.77 dB 6:49 05-Congeniality

DR12 0.00 dB -15.23 dB 6:07 06-Chronology

DR12 -0.02 dB -14.58 dB 5:55 07-Monk and the Nun (Bonus Track)

DR12 -0.65 dB -17.07 dB 3:55 08-Just for You (Bonus Track)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 8

Official DR value: DR13

Samplerate: 44100 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 16

Bitrate: 757 kbps

Codec: FLAC

================================================================================

and the peaks are as follows:

[Scott Dolan]

Played all my Coleman Atlantics last night . 9 discs from 7 different reissue series . All sounded just fine once immersed in the music. Top performer would be Atlantic Original Sound 50th anniversary of "This is our music." mastered in Switzerland , Atlantic Masters digipak of -"Twins " was the poorest with "First Take" sounding muddy by comparison to the version on the toilet roll digipak of "Free Jazz"

Clunky, are you sure? You need one or more $60.000 systems, Superman like super hearing, and incontinence diapers to make sense of the Atlantic Jazz catalogue on digital. But if the diaper fits ...

Thanks for the insult! I'll return the favor one day.

As rude as I can be when it comes to audiophilia, even I thought that comment was a bit over the line.

[jazzbo]

IMO if you want to know how good The Shape Of Jazz To Come can sound in the digital domain try the ORG Music hybrid SACD mastered by Bernie Grundman. Seriously, I'll eat my shoes if these Japanese discs sound better.

I have that SACD. SACDs sound better than redbook cds, I haven't compared the redbook layers. But the Warner Japan cd sounds very very good imo.

Scott, all I can say is that I was surprised by the improved sonics, and decided they were significant enough for this important muisc to collect the Japanese cds. I think it's a larger improvement than you may think on my system and with my ears, but only your listening could define that for you. And nothing to worry about if you have the music, I just enjoy these comparisons and having improved sound.

Lon, I have the 2007 Atlantic 60th WPCR-25109 mini-lp "The Shapes of Things to Come" CD carrying the "2006 24 bit" remastering - is it possible to identinfy if the recent 1000 yen Warner/Japan carries the same remastering?

Alex, I'm not able to. I'm not sure that the mastering is shared in this series with previous mastering. I don't have that other one to compare myself.

Edited March 14, 2015 by jazzbo

[Steve Reynolds]

Can anybody discuss the actual music?

How does the quartet function differently with Blackwell?

Is there a difference between the 1959 dates and the later dates?

How about compared to the later blue notes?

Lordy fucking Lordy

[xybert]

Question: have the six tracks that at the time of original release were previously unreleased been released elsewhere since?

"The Tribes of New York"

"Rise and Shine"

"Mr. and Mrs. People"

"I Heard It Over the Radio"

"Revolving Doors"

I have everything else from the set on disc but am considering picking up the box for many of the reasons people above have mentioned, but also for six whole new-to-me tracks!

You'll want those tracks, though a few are actually different takes of compositions you'll already know, while given a different title. Going by memory, for example:

• "The Tribes of New York" = "Little Symphony"

There are one or two others like this. Somebody will jump in with corrections.

"I Heard It Over The Radio" and "Mr. and Mrs. People" are two of the most beautiful tracks in the box, in my opinion. When I first heard them (now twenty years ago, egad), I was surprised that they were passed over in favor of other tracks for album inclusion.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[mjazzg]

Can anybody discuss the actual music?

How does the quartet function differently with Blackwell?

Is there a difference between the 1959 dates and the later dates?

How about compared to the later blue notes?

Lordy fucking Lordy

Amen!

[erwbol]

Can anybody discuss the actual music?

How does the quartet function differently with Blackwell?

Is there a difference between the 1959 dates and the later dates?

How about compared to the later blue notes?

Lordy fucking Lordy

Amen!

I'm not interested in discussing the music myself, though I do appreciate others here doing so. Or reading about the music in books.

I'm on the internet to get ideas for building a more satisfying CD collection in terms of both quality of music and product. Less waste of modest resources.

Modest resources is another reason I prefer to invest in a CD collection over going to live gigs, another pet subject of Steve's.

Deal with it.

[erwbol]

Can anybody discuss the actual music?

How does the quartet function differently with Blackwell?

Is there a difference between the 1959 dates and the later dates?

How about compared to the later blue notes?

Lordy fucking Lordy

Amen!

[hbbfam]

I am new to this forum, and have been a long time member of SH forum. There are two primary aspects to that forum, and presumably this forum as well. One is discovering music from artists I was not familiar with. Ornette is an example. The second aspect is the difference in mastering and sound quality of the artist's CDs (I gave up vinyl years ago). His box set is again an example of this aspect. I was assured by many people that the "Music is a beautiful thng" box sounded really nice (and it does).

I don't subscribe to the idea that I have to see wave forms and DB values to appreciate good (or bad) sound. Sound quality is so important when listening to some of these great artists.

I guess what I am saying is that "Can anybody discuss the actual music?" requires discussion of sound quality. They are not separate entities.