2015 MLB Season - Let's Play Two!

[Michael Weiss]

The Mets, Royals and Bird

Not without your typical Schaapisms - "It was Thursday, so Bird ate cornflakes at 10:39am," but still worthwhile, at the very least for any exposure of Pres and Bird to the masses...

[Scott Dolan]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Ok guys, now we're commenting on comments about comments, not baseball. A friendly suggestion that we keep it more or less on topic, at least in public. ok?

Agreed.

I'm done. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Brad said:

I don't think he did his job.  It's not his fault that Murphy didn't field the ball but then he has to hold them at 3-3.  More often than not, however, it seems that when something happens behinds a pitcher, it affects them.  For his own peace of mind going forward, whether it's this year or next, he needs to come in and show he can do it. 

If Murphy doesn't make the error, and if Murphy is either positioned and inch or two further over and/or is even one step faster, there's no discussion about whether or not Familia did his job, right? The only reason the discussion can be had is because of what happened with Perez' at bat, on which, no, he did not do his job (and even at that, nobody other than Bartolo Colon DID do their job against Perez last night).

I think it's fair to ask, instead or or on top of did Familia do his job, whether or not the job he was given to do is one he should have even been doing. Clippard definitely did not do his, even without the positioning/range consideration, Murphy definitely did not do his, so Familia's job then becomes to get outs that should already have been gotten. As far as "jobs" go, that's Mike Rowe territory!

The guy faces 4 batters and on three of those four gets grounders, none of which is cleanly hit out of the infield. Short of striking everybody out, what better of a job would you want from him? I'd think you'd want a better entry situation, better defense, a little better luck, and one different pitch to Perez. Only one of those is anything that Familia has any control over.

When something happens behind a pitcher like happened behind Familia, of course it affects him, or more accurately, affects the physics of the game - he's having to get extra outs. For every time that happens, you're talking less about "man against man" and more about "man against nature". Man agains man is a helluva lot simpler than man against nature. Familia came into the game with two outs already having been given away by the walks, and then two more by less than ideal defense. He was asked to get two outs and his team gave away four!

I think for his own peace of mind, he should have a manager that strategizes better than that, and a defense behind him that lets him pitch his game, as is. Otherwise, he's gonna get the feeling that he has to strike everybody out all the time, then he starts trying too hard, and then he's rurnt.

[Tim McG]

Been out of the country so I have missed most of the playoffs and WS. But I did see a fair amount of cricket, rugby, soccer and tennis...and in several different languages.

Looks like the Royals are seriously motivated. My money is on them.

[Larry Kart]

Only saw the Murphy play in real time and in re-play right afterwards, but my impression was 1) that he was screened to some extent by the runner, who was very close to the charging-in Murphy, and there's no defense against that, and 2) that he was expecting the next bounce of the ball to be in line with its previous bounces and placed his glove accordingly as he ran in, but instead the next bounce was a fair bit lower/flatter than the previous ones (some irregularity in the field?), and the ball went under his glove. Could a top-notch second baseman have made the play? Probably. Should Murphy be excoriated because he didn't? I don't think so, any more than Eric Hosmer should have been for the play he failed to make the night before. Tough chances, both of them -- nothing in the Bill Buckner or Leon Durham class. 

[Tim McG]

10 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

 

Three decades of losing baseball and the first time we squeak into the postseason we're playing the dynasty Giants team and holding our own? 

 

Dynasty Giants.

Somehow...like the sound of that. 

Thanks, Scott.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Tim McG

[Dan Gould]

Just found out what went down; not watching has been an excellent strategy for me at least in the final series.  I do feel badly for Chris and for Brad, they've waited a long time and will have to wait a little longer.  But I do have to take note of what I just read:

"Collins, who had planned to start the ninth inning with Familia but changed his mind, took the blame for sending Harvey back out.

"I said, 'Matt, you've got us exactly where we wanted to get you.' He said, 'I want this game in the worst way.' So obviously I let my heart get in the way of my gut. I love my players, and I trust them. And so I said, 'Go get 'em out,'" Collins said. "It didn't work. It was my fault.""

"I want this game in the worst way"?  Win or go home, you went 8 and you're begging for the chance at the glory of getting the complete game win? That's a self-centered a-hole right there. Collins has no balls to let himself be manipulated like that (Tell me, does Billy Martin not still go to Goose regardless of what his starter says? Does LaRussa not hand it to Eck anyway?) but I had been excited to hear rumors that Harvey would end up in Boston because he's from New England.

Now I am not so sure I want him.

 

[paul secor]

I couldn't understand why Collins left Harvey stay in after he walked the leadoff hitter.

[Scott Dolan]

Unfortunately, it looked as though nerves and pressure got the better of Collins in the moment. That's some pretty unforgiving on-the-job training, IMO. 

I hope he doesn't beat him self up about it. He flipped a coin, called heads, and it came up tails. It will happen sometimes. Besides, Harvey was cruising, and Familia was no guarantee as we've hit him also. 

[JSngry]

Why does Terry Collins hate Jeurys Familia?

[Brad]

I assume that's tongue in cheek. Until the last few years, closers came in to solve messy situations (runner on 1st and 2nd, etc.). Recently, you bring closers at the beginning of an inning. However, there's no reason why a closer shouldn't have been able to handle the situation.  Trust me, Terry and Dan Warthen are very protective of their players.  Unfortunately, inexplicably, Familia couldn't get it done. The Royals had something to do with that. 

[Dan Gould]

I think it's 20 years that closers have worked clean innings.  A former Met started it, he was toiling in Minnesota at the time.  What was his name? I want to say he gave up Hendu's homer that was supposed to win Game 6.

 

(There Brad I eased your suffering by bringing up a pleasant memory.  You're welcome.)

[Tim McG]

Congrats to the Royals fans and to you, Scott!

Been a long time coming...I can relate.

[catesta]

4 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Just found out what went down; not watching has been an excellent strategy for me at least in the final series.  I do feel badly for Chris and for Brad, they've waited a long time and will have to wait a little longer.  But I do have to take note of what I just read:

"Collins, who had planned to start the ninth inning with Familia but changed his mind, took the blame for sending Harvey back out.

"I said, 'Matt, you've got us exactly where we wanted to get you.' He said, 'I want this game in the worst way.' So obviously I let my heart get in the way of my gut. I love my players, and I trust them. And so I said, 'Go get 'em out,'" Collins said. "It didn't work. It was my fault.""

"I want this game in the worst way"?  Win or go home, you went 8 and you're begging for the chance at the glory of getting the complete game win? That's a self-centered a-hole right there. Collins has no balls to let himself be manipulated like that (Tell me, does Billy Martin not still go to Goose regardless of what his starter says? Does LaRussa not hand it to Eck anyway?) but I had been excited to hear rumors that Harvey would end up in Boston because he's from New England.

Now I am not so sure I want him.

 

Don't feel too bad for me. My disappointment started with the Yankees half ass run at the post-season and I know you have no sympathy for that.

 

[JSngry]

What is it that Familia couldn't get done? He got all 6 of the batters he faced, kept the ball in the infield against every batter he faced (except the two he struck out!). If Duda makes a good throw to the plate, Hosmer is likely out, game over. High-Drama DP to end the game, UH-oh, It Ain't Over Yet!!!!!!

Unless Familia's job is to play Mound Jesus and simply render hitter's bats into limpfish breadsticks, he did his job, and he did it exceptionally well.

Again, blame the defense, again, credit the Royals focus (they call it aggression, but it's more than that, it's "in the zone" focus), and again, find the managerial logic in the decision-making process that says that the guy who is not the preferred choice to not bring in to get three outs at the top of the inning with a two run lead suddenly becomes the ideal choice to bring in to get three outs in the same inning, only, here ya' go, start your inning with one runner in, and one runner on, and oh yeah, still nobody out.

You get the best results out of your players when you put your players in the best position for them to succeed, not when you bring them in with a sense of urgency to cover your own fuckups,

Collins logic these last two games has been like the boss who comes to you at 3 PM Friday and says I need 1000 pages by EOD today, and you ask him why didn't he come to you earlier, and he says, well, I didn't want to overuse you, and, you know, this other guy REALLY wanted the job, so I let him have it. But, you, you're our guy, so, go get 'em! And you know what you want to say to THAT boss, right? And then your computer freezes, you don't have time to proof it, your printer jams, but by god, you get him his 1000 pages by 5 PM, and then everybody's all like, wow, we expected better than THIS...

Now see, Bartolo Colon understands how it works, he says, oh, you want me to pitch my game? Well, sure, no problem, just let me get rid of all this clutter behind me that y'all left, especially that last guy that you put there on purpose, what am I, your freaking MAID? No, these guys gotta go, THEN Bartolo will pitch.

I think we have a new baseball equation - it's still hard to beat great pitching, but bad manager decisioning + imprecise defense equals things out about as well as it can be done!

[Brad]

There is no doubt that Collins had two bad games -- the Collins of 2014 and prior years showed up; I don't want to go through a litany right now.  I'd rather watch paint dry.  The fact of the matter is he came in and blew three saves.  If you want to give him a pass on last night, fine, whatever.  The other two, absolutely not.

38 minutes ago, Tim McG said:

Congrats to the Royals fans and to you, Scott!

Been a long time coming...I can relate.

Definitely.  You guys earned it.  Congrats Scott.  I was thinking last night of which player/pitchers I'd love to have.  The ones that come to mind are Hosmer and Hochevar (really like the way he pitches).

[JSngry]

And congrats to Series MVP Salvador Perez. He was a kick to watch, as catchers usually are, but I remember a few years ago when the Rangers were still really good and the Royals were just beginning to get good, we had a Sunday afternoon game and Elvis, scored the game-winning run on some kind of crazy-ass baserunning that culminated with him just barely avoiding Perez's all-in epic attempt at a combination lunge/sweep tag. Perez missed the tag, but the way he popped up and held the ball high with pride that soon turned to snarling disbelief and then to a steely determined walk off the field, at first I laughed at the guy, you know, went all Nelson on him, but after a few replays, I was like, DAMN, this cat's a monster, don't poke the tiger!

Ever since, whenever I hear the name, it's always in conjunction with being a team leader, a great clubhouse guy, a masterful handler of pitchers, just an all-round HOSS, as well as being Heir-Apparent to Adrian Beltre for being The Toughest Guy In Baseball. Hell, the throne is big enough for two, they can share it!

[Scott Dolan]

1 hour ago, Tim McG said:

Congrats to the Royals fans and to you, Scott!

Been a long time coming...I can relate.

Thanks, brother. It feel really good. So happy for the boys. It's like watching the blue collar, lunch pail and hardhat guy win the lottery. Just a completely workman-like effort from this group day in and day out. They didn't have the starters to blow anyone away, and they weren't going to launch balls out of the park with any regularity on offense. But they're stubborn and determined fucks who believe in aggressive play, and pressuring the other team to perform (i.e. that tying run from Hosmer). They're just such a fun group of guys to watch, and super easy to root for. 

The Mets are a really good looking, young team that has been assembled in the same manner that the Royals have been. Through their own farm system. I admire that a lot. Teams that spend ungodly amounts to bring in a bunch of hired guns seasoned and trained elsewhere in an attempt to buy a championship aren't even worthy of my attention. But, just as the Royals were put together the "right" way, so were the Mets. And I think we'll see both teams continue to succeed in the near future. 

The Mets have to address their defense up the middle, as well as fortify their pen. The Royals, as always, will need to address the rotation. 

And Tim, I hope this offseason sees your boys get healthy again. You guys simply lost the war of attrition this season. Here's to seeing the Giants and their classy fan base back in the postseason next year! 

And Jim, damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Collins replaces Harvey with Familia and we get him again, fans would be screaming bloody murder because he didn't leave Harvey in. 

I've watched the same hindsight arguments all year long about Yost. I'll say the same thing here as I say on the Royals board: He got your team to the World Series. My guess is that he knows a hell of a lot mor about managing a MLB team than you, I, or anyone else reading these words. 

[JSngry]

48 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

 

Collins replaces Harvey with Familia and we get him again, fans would be screaming bloody murder because he didn't leave Harvey in. 

 

Ok, this is hot stove type stuff, probably need to get that thread going again soon, but until then...

The only way that not starting Familia in the 9th in either Game 4 or game 5 makes sense is if you didn't like the matchups. But that's not what we heard, we heard two different explanations of why we'd wait until Reason X to bring him in, and they were reasons that had nothing to do with matchups, one was some kind of well, we don't want to use him unless there's trouble in place (huh?), the other a purely emotional decision.

If you bring the guy in at all, it's because you have confidence in him to get the job done, and if you have that level of confidence in him, why don't you send him out there with a clean slate? I just don't get it.

And I really hope that nobody in the Mets org is taking that three blown saves crap to heart and projecting it onto Familia, becuse that's bullshit. The first one, yes, that was blown. The second, really, sure he threw the pitches that resulted in the save being blown, but that one's really, almost completely, on Collins bringing him in too late and Murphy not being a more adept defender, not once but twice. Yes, the single by Perez, but again - did that AB even need to have happened?

And finally, the third - again, not brought into a good table-setting, the ball never leaves the infield, the defense does not make an optimal play (and nobody's really asking if Wright was the guy to make that play, or if it would have been better to have it fielded by a more stationary Flores who might have had a split second longer to look back Hosmer at third, I mean, you can't really find fault there, but again, it goes to timing AFTER that ball is put into play, something completely beyond Familia's control), how is that on Familia, who then comes out the next inning, and continues to pitch impeccable closer ball, and this time with a clean slate. Same results, different setting.

If Familia had come in for the 9th and blown it, then sure, Mets fans could scream their bloody murder. But they would not have logic on their side, I don't think. Of course, no guarantees, never any guarantees, but play the odds, and save the emotion for Valentines Day, ya' know?

Fullest credit to Royals for focusing on opportunities and realizing them with what has to be some kind of historical precision, especially in these last two games,but...of all the Mets who gave them those opportunities and/or gave them up, Familia is not at the top of the list, and except for Game 1. should arguably not even be on the list at all.

Believe me, I've seen what happens to a gifted young closer when he "fails" in improbable circumstances, takes a lot of heat, and then loses his confidence and then the organization starts tinkering with him, and then his mind starts wobbling and then his body follows suit...it's a sad thing to watch, and even sadder when there's no return to form and the ties are unceremoniously cut. Let's everybody hope that Jeurys Familia has both a stronger resiliency instrument and a stronger support system within both his organization and his fanbase than did Neftali Feliz.

[Scott Dolan]

A relief pitcher has one job, to shut the inning down. Most of our relievers neither care about or pay attention to base runners, and they tend to pitch from the stretch anyway. Perhaps it's just a philosophical difference, I don't know. 

But, if you've got a starter who is simply unconscious, and well within any agreed upon pitch count limit and showing no signs of fatigue, yes, you send him back out. 

If your closer has to have a clean slate in order to pitch effectively, perhaps it's time to find a different closer. 

[JSngry]

The flipside of that is that if your manager has a tendency to handle his closer reactively rather than proactively, then perhaps it's time to find a different manager.

However...

If your closer's m.o. is the strikeout, then no don't worry about baserunners.

If your closer's m.o. in any way involves allowing contact (as opposed to occasional contact being an unfortunate inevitability), even soft contact, then, yes, be conscious of how the table is set when you bring him in.

Because, you know, once motion, shit can happen.

Not really watching the Mets except for the post-season, Familia's m.o. seemed to me to be getting outs through strikeouts and soft contact in about equal measure. He didn't seem to be one of these guys where if you even touch the ball it's a miracle. So, yes, manage the context, maximize opportunity for successful outcomes, don't just put him out there in the middle of a bunch of shit and tell him, ok, bye, go be a hero now. I mean, yeah, you can do that, and when it works, sure Hero, but...really? There are less comic-book ways to go about it!

This is why you see managers using relievers for one batter. It seems hyper-micro-managerial sometimes, but if you can get the best matchup on a pitcher by pitcher basis until you get to a better spot to use you closer, then you do so. In some situations, a 4 or 5 (or even 6) out save is an easier proposition than is a 3 out save. It all depends on the set-up.

I take it that the Mets did not really have to tools to go at it like that, but based on what happened to the baseball after it left Famila's hand (as opposed to what the box scores says happened), I think they're fine at closer, just fine. They just need better situational relievers and less flukey defense. Who doesn't?

And having said that, yes, Collins got his team to the WS, and lord knows he's been a great guy on some not so great teams for many years, and it was really nice to see him here. It was joyful to see his glow after the NLCS, I LOL-ed in happiness to see that, I really did. Terry Collins is ok by me. I wish he would have made some different decisions about his closer, so we could have - maybe - seen him a few games more.

Either way, though, mull it over in the off-season, let Familia know that all is well, and keep being Terry Collins...and maybe ask for a bigger uniform next year, see if you can't get that Stengal '63 thing rockin' to full effect, you're almost there!

[JSngry]

One more thing...a whole 162 game season of Royals/Astros baseball would be fun to watch just for the post-game musings of Ned Yost and A.J. Hinch. Talk about talking about the game being almost as interesting as watching it!

[Scott Dolan]

The Astros are an outrageously dangerous team. I still have no idea how we beat them in the LDS. 

They're also built in a similar fashion to the Royals and Mets. They cleaned house and collected prospects, sacrificing seasons along the way, much like the Royals (though the Mets not so much. Their down years were more the product of poorly spent large payrolls). But now they're young and lined with talent. They look like they will also have many successful seasons to come. 

[JSngry]

When I was saying a while back about the Rangers don't even make the playoffs this year, I firmly had the Astros in mind as West Division winners, and probably Twins as 2nd WC. Then when Twins faded, I still saw Astros as div. winners. Rangers cut 'em off at the knees with the four game sweep, but damn if they didn't have regenrative limbs, go figure that!

Yeah, dangerous team as currently constructed, and barring injury (and with a few roster tweaks offseason) one that should be around for a good while.

In both cases (Astros & Royals), enjoy the "home grown" aspect of it while you can. Economics and unforeseen necessities can happen, players either leave or get traded or get hurt and never rebound all the way back and you gotta go outside to the neighbors' for some help while waiting for prospects to hopefully fully develop...it's a glorious thing to have when you have it, for sure. Nothing like it.

[Scott Dolan]

Oh trust me, Jim. 

I'm a Royals fan. I probably understand the economic realities better than you do. I've lived with them every day for well over a decade. I enjoy the moment, but never get attached to any particular player. 

Dayton Moore has really turned things around not only for himself as a GM, but for the Royals organization. And though the decade it took him was excruciating, the pay off has been wonderful. And I think he'll continue to succeed because he "gets" how to assemble a winning team in the smallest market in MLB. He has turned things around here by going after the lesser desirable players. Starters who pitch to contact, solid defensive guys, and failed starters that he feels can be turned into lights out relievers. And none of those players tend to cost that much money. 

Sure, we'll eventually lose guys like Gordon, Hosmer, Moustakas, and Cain to headhunters with seemingly limitless funds. But, the overall model is sustainable. Besides, I still don't understand why certain teams insist on giving 30+ year old player 7 year contracts for $120mil+. In recent years the Yankees, Phillies, and Dodgers have shown why that's NOT a sustainable model. 

Not that I can prove it, but I think that's one of the reasons why the Royals aren't all that well-liked by the pundits and blowhard "baseball guys". 

Because they refuse to pay the price of admission to be an "elite" club. And in turn exposing how stupid the big spenders really are. 

Edited November 2, 2015 by Scott Dolan