JSngry Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Ok, if your first response is oh HELL no, then ok, don't bother. Otherwise, consider. There's a lot of things to consider on this program. Time, place, cultural crossroads. At any given moment, Sonny Till bends a note like Johnny Hodges, floats the time like Louis Armstrong, the songs can get as much King Cole Trio (w/no piano!) as anything, background vocal arrangements are as much big band moving parts as they are block chords, just ALL sorts of things going on. No drums, no tenor solos. Just bass, guitar and vocals. Between these guys and The Ravens, the line between "jazz" and "R&B" was still very much anything but fixed. This disc shows why. So, consider. Quote
Big Beat Steve Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Thanks. Will get on my "To do" list. Quote
Stereojack Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 I got it! It's a real treasure, although I can't help but wonder how many of something like this he can expect to sell. Quote
John L Posted February 11, 2015 Report Posted February 11, 2015 Wow! I didn't realize that this has been released. I am ordering it today. Quote
JSngry Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Posted February 12, 2015 Sunenblick makes this claim, which I had never really considered before: Unfortunately, no live recordings of a black vocal group's appearance has ever surfaced, except for a handful of tracks by the Ravens and while lots of "lost" jazz performances eventually are found, the same cannot be said of this genre. First of all, what are these Ravens things (I love The Ravens), and is this to be taken as literally true, or is it one of those relative/appears to be so/AFAIK things? Quote
GA Russell Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Were they called "Sonny Til and the Orioles" in 1951? I thought they were called "The Orioles," and it wasn't until later that Til got the billing. Anyone remember? Quote
Clunky Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 If you don't know anything by this group( like me) is this a reasonable intro? Unfortunately I can't find any samples. Quote
Stereojack Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 THe Orioles recorded extensively for Jubilee. There was a LP boxed set on Murray Hill, and later a CD box on Bear Family. Their recordings were polished and professional, while the performance on this set is rather loose, and offers a more accurate example of how they really sounded. Here are the original versions of two of their biggest hits: Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Sunenblick makes this claim, which I had never really considered before: Unfortunately, no live recordings of a black vocal group's appearance has ever surfaced, except for a handful of tracks by the Ravens and while lots of "lost" jazz performances eventually are found, the same cannot be said of this genre. First of all, what are these Ravens things (I love The Ravens), and is this to be taken as literally true, or is it one of those relative/appears to be so/AFAIK things? "black vocal groups" of the '50s, in the '50s, maybe...the earliest live recordings that pop into my head are early '60s BUT I'm not an expert here. Would love to hear a good live recording of the '5' Royales or the Clovers or the Flamingos, to name just a few. Quote
AllenLowe Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 there's plenty of live gospel recordings of vocal groups; the Live at the Shrine, for one. Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 there's plenty of live gospel recordings of vocal groups; the Live at the Shrine, for one. true dat, good point Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 I know that Bob Sunenblick has been searching for these recordings for over a decade and this is his first "strike". After his success finding jazz treasures, I suggest it is reasonable to accept his word on the groups search. Quote
JSngry Posted February 13, 2015 Author Report Posted February 13, 2015 So those Ravens things have not yet been available commercially? Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted February 13, 2015 Report Posted February 13, 2015 So those Ravens things have not yet been available commercially? Don't know about that. Quote
JSngry Posted February 13, 2015 Author Report Posted February 13, 2015 This has been on YouTube for a few months now...sounds like the Sullivan show, and represents just one part of what The Ravens could and did do. Still, seeing something like this and looking for simialar live footage (as opposed to Harlem Hit Parade type stuff) does drive home how only-partially-documented this scene has been. Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted February 14, 2015 Report Posted February 14, 2015 This has been on YouTube for a few months now...sounds like the Sullivan show, and represents just one part of what The Ravens could and did do. Still, seeing something like this and looking for simialar live footage (as opposed to Harlem Hit Parade type stuff) does drive home how only-partially-documented this scene has been. not live, but what a difference a decade made to the telling of the same (>or<) tail, I first heard the Yardbirds' version. Quote
JSngry Posted February 14, 2015 Author Report Posted February 14, 2015 What I dig about the Ravens is that they could play it soft top and hard bottom with equal intensity. The whole yin/yang thing, Soft top: Hard bottom: Those guys were just so damn musical. Them, the Orioles, and the Moonglows (and after, them, The Dells) hey, if that's all there was, I would be blissfully contented. Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted February 14, 2015 Report Posted February 14, 2015 What, no Flamingos? You think Grant Green knew the Ravens' version of Count Every Star? Mixed metafers of Don't Have to Ride? Quote
JSngry Posted February 14, 2015 Author Report Posted February 14, 2015 Flamingos...yeah, but I'm still not sure how much of that zone is just getting lost in the infinite reverb(s)...good place to be lost, though, and those tempos...yeah. I think that anybody who played or otherwise hung out in African-American bars in the late-40s early 50s knew those Ravens' records. That would be like hanging out in a honky tonk in the 1960s and knowing George Jones records, it was something that just happened by osmosis, ya' know? Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted February 15, 2015 Report Posted February 15, 2015 the Flamingos uptempo & live(?) Quote
AllenLowe Posted February 15, 2015 Report Posted February 15, 2015 so are we saying the live gospel recordings don't count as live group recordings? I wanna be correct here, if for no other reason than to make Sunnenblck wrong. call me petty, but call me right. Quote
paul secor Posted February 16, 2015 Report Posted February 16, 2015 Not live - but great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs8Su_iIqjA Quote
John L Posted February 16, 2015 Report Posted February 16, 2015 so are we saying the live gospel recordings don't count as live group recordings? I wanna be correct here, if for no other reason than to make Sunnenblck wrong. call me petty, but call me right. I imagine that the comment refers to secular groups before the 1960s. Otherwise, it makes no sense. There were not many live R&B recordings made in the 50s at all, official or unofficial. James Brown's Live at the Apollo was a revolution in that respect. Quote
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