Japanese Jazz

[Rabshakeh]

Just revisiting this great thread. Haino, Hino and Heino. Sad that nobody thought to throw in Heinrich Heine.

Turning back to topic, does anyone have a feel for what the acknowledged "classics" of the Japanese jazz scene are for jazz that is not free / fusion / post bop? I.e., what are the most well regarded records in a bop / modernism idiom, between 1945-1968 or thereabout, corresponding to the likes of the Jazz Couriers records, the early Jutta Hipp sides or Barney Wilen's Tilt, in Europe?

Whilst exploring, it seems obvious that there was a scene there that was pretty prolific, and which birthed the 'Big Names' of Akiyoshi and Watanabe among others, but it doesn't seem to attract the reissues like the later stuff. The J Jazz comps start with a 1969 start date.  I don't know whether that is because it was all released on 10"s, because it was a little derivative, or because the covers don't look as cool.  I see names like Shungo Sawada, Hideo Shiraki, George Otsuka and Takeshi Inomata pop up quite a lot.

Does anyone know the records with which to start?

Bossa records welcome. I have happy memories of living Japan and classic j-bossa being a common thing to encounter among certain kinds of middle aged guys.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Niko]

Masao Yagi plays Monk and The Ginparis Compilation are the first two that come to my mind... and those joint Sadao Watanabe / Charlie Mariano records... Bossa Nova in Japan was clearly the domain of Watanabe it seems, quite a few albums there...

[Rabshakeh]

14 hours ago, Niko said:

Masao Yagi plays Monk and The Ginparis Compilation are the first two that come to my mind... and those joint Sadao Watanabe / Charlie Mariano records... Bossa Nova in Japan was clearly the domain of Watanabe it seems, quite a few albums there...

Thanks! 

Ginparis, I know. It's more the avant scene but before it gets avant garde.

The Yagi I will check out. Interesting to see an early Monk tribute, before it became the fashion. 

The Nabe / Marianos are a great example of the sort of thing. I'm also a fan of Jazz & Bossa. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[mjazzg]

I don't know the Yagi either and will look for it

I fear the revival of this thread could get expensive...

[Rabshakeh]

1 minute ago, mjazzg said:

I fear the revival of this thread could get expensive...

I was worried that everyone was getting too comfortable.

[Niko]

Jazz Intersession is also good, I believe Rooster Ties posted about it some more at some point, never found a copy I wanted to afford though...

[mjazzg]

1 minute ago, Rabshakeh said:

I was worried that everyone was getting too comfortable.

The guilt, the guilt...

This is just in your date range and it's on its way to me even before the your current intervention 

https://www.discogs.com/master/830694-Nobuo-Hara-His-Sharps-And-Flats-Meets-Hōzan-Yamamoto-New-Jazz-In-Japan-日本のニュージャズ

 

2 minutes ago, Niko said:

Jazz Intersession is also good, I believe Rooster Ties posted about it some more at some point, never found a copy I wanted to afford though...

Yes, that's very good. I picked up a copy soon after Rooster's recommendation 

[Rabshakeh]

4 minutes ago, Niko said:

Jazz Intersession is also good, I believe Rooster Ties posted about it some more at some point, never found a copy I wanted to afford though...

That looks bang on. I hadn't heard of it.

3 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

This is just in your date range and it's on its way to me even before the your current intervention 

https://www.discogs.com/master/830694-Nobuo-Hara-His-Sharps-And-Flats-Meets-Hōzan-Yamamoto-New-Jazz-In-Japan-日本のニュージャズ

Thanks! 

[mjazzg]

This is referenced way up thread

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Nippon-Authenticating-Jazz-Japan-ebook/dp/B00EDIWUF8

Looks interesting 

Edit to add: "usually despatched within 6 to 7 months" 😁

Edited October 5, 2023 by mjazzg

[Niko]

38 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

This is referenced way up thread

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Nippon-Authenticating-Jazz-Japan-ebook/dp/B00EDIWUF8

Looks interesting 

Edit to add: "usually despatched within 6 to 7 months" 😁

It's a fine book but the focus is more the societal background - as a guide to the most essential albums its not terribly helpful... there was more discussion of this book in another thread

[mjazzg]

4 minutes ago, Niko said:

It's a fine book but the focus is more the societal background - as a guide to the most essential albums its not terribly helpful... there was more discussion of this book in another thread

Thanks Niko

[clifford_thornton]

59 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Thanks! 

That Sharps & Flats/Yamamoto album is very good. I think there's at least one other collaboration as well.

[HutchFan]

3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Turning back to topic, does anyone have a feel for what the acknowledged "classics" of the Japanese jazz scene are for jazz that is not free / fusion / post bop? I.e., what are the most well regarded records in a bop / modernism idiom, between 1945-1968 or thereabout, corresponding to the likes of the Jazz Couriers records, the early Jutta Hipp sides or Barney Wilen's Tilt, in Europe?

Rab,

I've been on a bit of Akira Miyazawa kick lately, but the records that I've been focusing on were made just after the period that you're looking for.  That said, I think Miyazawa -- much like Akiyoshi & Watanabe -- is regarded as a pioneer in Japanese jazz.

To give you a sense of his age relative to other well-known Japanese jazzmen, Miyazawa is at least 12 years older than his sidemen/collaborators on Bull Trout (Victor, 1969): 
- Miyazawa - b. 1927
- Masahiko Satoh - b. 1941
- Yasuo Arakawa - b. 1939
- Masahiko Togashi - b. 1940

I haven't heard any of Miyazawa's work that precedes Bull Trout, which is probably (?) his most highly-regarded album.  Even so, I thought I'd toss his name in the ring, because there might be some interesting stuff that does fall into the mid-Forties to late-Sixties timeframe you describe above.

Here's Miyazawa's Discogs entry (all credits, both leader & sideman). 

The first thing that catches my eye: Lots of cheesecake covers.  

 

3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Whilst exploring, it seems obvious that there was a scene there that was pretty prolific, and which birthed the 'Big Names' of Akiyoshi and Watanabe among others, but it doesn't seem to attract the reissues like the later stuff. The J Jazz comps start with a 1969 start date.  I don't know whether that is because it was all released on 10"s, because it was a little derivative, or because the covers don't look as cool.

My assumption:  It seems like there was a flowering of creative and distinctively different jazz in Japan that began in the very late-60s.  (This actually paralleled things that were happening in Europe.)  Jazz without an American accent.  In general, before that, it seems less unique, largely derivative.

But, like I said, this is just an assumption.  Really, I haven't done enough listening to pre-1970s J-Jazz to know whether my assumption is wrongheaded.

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by HutchFan

[mjazzg]

There's this one which is very good

https://www.discogs.com/master/346409-Hideo-Shiraki-Quintet-3-Koto-Girls-Sakura-Sakura

And this, just outside your period

https://www.discogs.com/master/799796-HinoKikuchi-Quintet-HinoKikuchi-Quintet

[Rabshakeh]

47 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Rab,

I've been on a bit of Akira Miyazawa kick lately, but the records that I've been focusing on were made just after the period that you're looking for.  That said, I think Miyazawa -- much like Akiyoshi & Watanabe -- is regarded as a pioneer in Japanese jazz.

To give you a sense of his age relative to other well-known Japanese jazzmen, Miyazawa is at least 12 years older than his sidemen/collaborators on Bull Trout (Victor, 1969): 
- Miyazawa - b. 1927
- Masahiko Satoh - b. 1941
- Yasuo Arakawa - b. 1939
- Masahiko Togashi - b. 1940

I haven't heard any of Miyazawa's albums that precede Bull Trout, which is probably (?) his most highly-regarded album.  Even so, I thought I'd toss his name in the ring, because there might be some interesting stuff that does fall into the mid-Forties to late-Sixties timeframe you describe above.

Here's Miyazawa's Discogs entry (all credits, both leader & sideman). 

Miyazawa is a name I know well. I think that he did play with the Japanese modernists, including Akiyoshi. Like you, I don't know much about his earlier records. Bull Trout's a real classic.

49 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Here's Miyazawa's Discogs entry (all credits, both leader & sideman). 

The first thing that catches my eye: Lots of cheesecake covers. 

Cheesecake covers are a universally recognised sign of jazz modernism.

[HutchFan]

4 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Cheesecake covers are a universally recognised sign of jazz modernism.

  I see.  I didn't know this.

 

[Rabshakeh]

11 hours ago, HutchFan said:

My assumption:  It seems like there was a flowering of creative and distinctively different jazz in Japan that began in the very late-60s.  (This actually paralleled things that were happening in Europe.)  Jazz without an American accent.  In general, before that, it was less unique, largely derivative.

I think this is true. Much as I enjoy Tubby Hayes etc. the same is true of them. In both cases, the advent of modal and free ideas and electrification opened up jazz.

I think the Japanese version of "creative and distinctively different" post 1968 is quite different to the European. Leaving aside the free-er perimeter, I tend to think that at least some of the Japanese records of that post 1968 period can be derived from deeper exploration of paths untaken in the US (and particularly In A Silent Way, which is used as a model in Japan in a way that it never was in the US), whereas the Europeans seem to be straining to try to find models outside of the the US records.

[Edited to remove absurd half-written statement.]

10 hours ago, mjazzg said:

There's this one which is very good

https://www.discogs.com/master/346409-Hideo-Shiraki-Quintet-3-Koto-Girls-Sakura-Sakura

And this, just outside your period

https://www.discogs.com/master/799796-HinoKikuchi-Quintet-HinoKikuchi-Quintet

Two great records that I do know. Sakura Sakura is a good example of what I was referring to.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Д.Д.]

Would this one count?

https://www.discogs.com/release/12919347-Toshiko-Akiyoshi-Toshiko-Meets-Her-Old-Pals-トシコ旧友に会う-

Recorded in 1961 with all-Japanese band (yes, with Akira Mizayawa on tenor). It's good stuff.  

 

[HutchFan]

3 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I think this is true. Much as I enjoy Tubby Hayes etc. the same is true of them. In both cases, the advent of modal and free ideas and electrification opened up jazz.

I agree.  Another way of thinking about it:  I wonder how much the fragmentation of "Jazz" (as a sort of imagined unity) into many "Jazzes" (spinning off in a seemingly crazy multitude of directions) contributed to this around-the-world flowering as well.  It's almost as if people said to themselves, "Hey, we can do whatever the hell we want!"  

This theory is just speculation on my part, of course.  But it definitely feels like the breakdown of the "rules of the game" freed up musicians to try many new things -- and this was true in the United States too. 

 

11 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I think the Japanese version of "creative and distinctively different" post 1968 is quite different to the European. Leaving aside the free-er perimeter, I tend to think that the Japanese records of that post 1968 period can almost be derived from the US ones (and particularly In A Silent Way, which is used as a model in Japan in a way that it never was in the US), whereas the Europeans try to find models outside of the the US records.

Interesting.  I would be hesitant to say that Japanese jazz was more dependent on American models than European jazz was -- as a blanket sort of statement -- particularly if we're focusing on first half of the Seventies.  I might be more comfortable with the assertion if we were talking about the second half of the decade.  During that time, in Japan there was definitely a lot of jumping on the fusion bandwagon. 

But -- even if we take the later-70s into account -- it seems like there were many European and Japanese jazz musicians  striking out in new & interesting directions during the decade. 

Just curious: Do you include musicians like Satoh, Kikuchi, and Togashi in the "free-er perimeter"?   Because these are the sorts of figures that I would point to as evidence of the vitality of J-Jazz.

 

[Д.Д.]

This gentleman too: Hidehiko Matsumoto . Same age as Miles and Coltrane. I don't know his '50s-'60s recordings but heard his '70s stuff - solid mainstream.   

Also George Kawaguchi, "Japanese Art Blakey", no less: https://www.discogs.com/artist/1803197-George-Kawaguchi?type=Credits&filter_anv=0 

A good drummer.   

[Rabshakeh]

25 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Just curious: Do you include musicians like Satoh, Kikuchi, and Togashi in the "free-er perimeter"?   Because these are the sorts of figures that I would point to as evidence of the vitality of J-Jazz.

 

Satoh and Togashi sometimes. 

I don't mean that Japanese jazz was more dependent. More that the distancing from American models in the non-avant space might have come by way of investigating them thoroughly for other avenues, rather than seeking to avoid them.

I think there are quite a few records from the early 70s in Japan that really dig into the unexplored possibilities of the acoustic Second Quintet and In A Silent Way, often one on one side and one on the other, in a way that you see less in Europe, where electricity so often equals rock rhythms.

You are right that we shouldn't generalise though. I can think of plenty of examples of Japanese musicians going the other way. "Non-avant" really is not a sensible category. 

16 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

This gentleman too: Hidehiko Matsumoto . Same age as Miles and Coltrane. I don't know his '50s-'60s recordings but heard his '70s stuff - solid mainstream.   

This guy is someone I also see referenced, particularly by the nickname. Do you know the records with which to start?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[HutchFan]

16 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I think there are quite a few records from the early 70s in Japan that really dig into the unexplored possibilities of the acoustic Second Quintet and In A Silent Way, often one on one side and one on the other, in a way that you see less in Europe, where electricity so often equals rock rhythms.

Ah, I see what you're saying.  That makes sense.

 

[T.D.]

5 hours ago, Niko said:

Masao Yagi plays Monk and The Ginparis Compilation are the first two that come to my mind... and those joint Sadao Watanabe / Charlie Mariano records... Bossa Nova in Japan was clearly the domain of Watanabe it seems, quite a few albums there...

If you want straight-ahead, perhaps exercise a degree of caution with the Watanabe/Mariano albums. I have a couple on which Charlie Mariano goes into his Indian bag and plays some nagaswaram. Not unpleasant, but perhaps not what the OP had in mind. The bossa titles should be safe.

[Д.Д.]

35 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

This gentleman too: Hidehiko Matsumoto . Same age as Miles and Coltrane. I don't know his '50s-'60s recordings but heard his '70s stuff - solid mainstream.   

20 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

This guy is someone I also see referenced, particularly by the nickname. Do you know the records with which to start?

   

I know only this album: https://www.discogs.com/release/16259122-Hidehiko-Matsumoto-Quartet-Sleepy . I like it. It's with Motohiko Hino on drums, whom I really enjoy. 

[clifford_thornton]

George & Sleepy on Victor is fairly well regarded also.

Given the significance of Blakey, Miles, and Coltrane performing in Japan I would imagine their influence was keenly, keenly felt among both players and audiences. Therefore the "derivations" have felt so naturally linked to the originators that they never bothered me. And the breaks from Coltrane, Miles, Blakey are also that much more severe once you factor in the importance of American forebears.