Soul Stream Posted June 21, 2005 Report Posted June 21, 2005 JSngry said: Maybe it's just a hump I need to get over, but jeez, I look around, and far better people than I have been trying to get over that same hump for the last 40 or so years, and to what end? If it was going to happen, shouldn't it have happened by now? ← C'mon Jim you know music ain't a competition! I heard a nice version of Giant Steps by Javon Jackson. He seemed to just take the changes as they were and do something that HE would do over them. Didn't really sound like Trane at all to me. Anyway, that's kind of beside the point. I guess I would just say as a set of changes, they seem like something that would be fun to improve up over the years. I don't plan on breaking this stuff out anytime on a gig in the next 50 years...but at home it's nice for kicks. Quote
Rosco Posted June 21, 2005 Report Posted June 21, 2005 All good advice... As someone who's been working at Giant Steps (for far too long!) I can only echo what's already been said and add a couple of thoughts... Get to grips with the key centers first, solo and out of tempo, getting the feel of changing between them under your fingers and into your muscle memory. Remember a large part of the difficulty in Giant Steps (especially for horn players) is that the three keys are major third apart (an augmented triad), resulting in very few common tones. The good news is there are basically only four permutations of this: B/ G/ Eb C/ Ab/ E C#/ A/ F D/ Bb/ F# It's also instructive (I've found) to follow through Coltrane's evolution of this idea. He started out using this sequence as an 'outside' substitution over a ii-V-I and he applied it to standard tunes such as Body and Soul and But Not For Me. Check out the 1958 version of 'Limehouse Blues' with Cannonball Adderley where he superimposes it over the chords while the rhythm section stay where they are. Very tasty. 'Countdown' is of course just Miles' 'Tune Up' with these substitutions in place of the ii-V-Is (bars 14-15 are practically identical still), 'Satellite' is 'How High the Moon'; '26-2' is 'Confirmation', etc... While agreeing (as usual) with JSngry's post, i have to say I don't think there's anything wrong with being mathematical with these changes in the privacy of your own practice room. One of the things about setting yourself a challange like this is to help increase your mental and physical agility and responses, to shorten the distance from written music to brain and from brain to fingers. I often like to play Steps for a while and then follow it up with a gentle, tender ballad, a blues or a simple modal piece. Somehow the very challange of making those changes sharpens your game. Being mathematical on the bandstand is something else of course. Sometimes you just have to play these things for a looooong time before you can actually make music with it. Quote
Soul Stream Posted June 21, 2005 Report Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) Thanks for the good advice Rosco. As someone who's been tackling this a while. Can you give me a digital exercise that's a good starting point? Edited June 21, 2005 by Soul Stream Quote
JSngry Posted June 21, 2005 Report Posted June 21, 2005 Soul Stream said: JSngry said: Maybe it's just a hump I need to get over, but jeez, I look around, and far better people than I have been trying to get over that same hump for the last 40 or so years, and to what end? If it was going to happen, shouldn't it have happened by now? ← C'mon Jim you know music ain't a competition! I heard a nice version of Giant Steps by Javon Jackson. He seemed to just take the changes as they were and do something that HE would do over them. Didn't really sound like Trane at all to me. Anyway, that's kind of beside the point. I guess I would just say as a set of changes, they seem like something that would be fun to improve up over the years. I don't plan on breaking this stuff out anytime on a gig in the next 50 years...but at home it's nice for kicks. ← My only competition is with myself, and, as much as I hate to lose, sometimes I do. Quote
Soul Stream Posted June 21, 2005 Report Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) O.K. Jim...keep in mind I'm still learning the chords as a ballad! Was also listening to Countdown today and thinking....O.K...NOBODY should have attempt that one at that tempo.... It made me think GS might not be as bad as it gets. Also read in the reissue liners that Giant Steps LP was recorded in 1960 but wasn't released until 1964. Could you imagine a musician today recording something like that and then the record company sitting on it for that long. Guns might get involved. Edited June 21, 2005 by Soul Stream Quote
JSngry Posted June 21, 2005 Report Posted June 21, 2005 Soul Stream said: Also read in the reissue liners that Giant Steps LP was recorded in 1960 but wasn't released until 1964. Don't think that's accurate. Coltrane's Sound, maybe, but not Giant Steps. Quote
John Tapscott Posted June 21, 2005 Report Posted June 21, 2005 Hey don't overlook Al Cohn's approach. When someone asked Al if he ever played "Giant Steps," he replied, "Sure I play it, BUT WITH MY OWN CHANGES!" Quote
JSngry Posted June 22, 2005 Report Posted June 22, 2005 Giant Steps was out before 1964, I'm certain. Quote
Guy Berger Posted June 23, 2005 Report Posted June 23, 2005 JSngry said: Giant Steps was out before 1964, I'm certain. ← I think it was released in 1960. Guy Quote
Rosco Posted June 23, 2005 Report Posted June 23, 2005 According to the Heavyweight Champion boxed set of Coltrane's Atlantic recordings, Giant Steps was released January 1960. (The catalogue number, 1311, is probably a good clue... Atlantic were into the 1400s by 1964) Quote
Soul Stream Posted June 25, 2005 Report Posted June 25, 2005 Yes, my mistake it was released pretty much right away. ....by the way...does anyone have the Heavyweight Champion set? Was curious as to the last CD which has a ton of Giant Steps false starts and incomplete takes. Quote
Rosco Posted June 25, 2005 Report Posted June 25, 2005 Soul Stream said: Yes, my mistake it was released pretty much right away. ....by the way...does anyone have the Heavyweight Champion set? Was curious as to the last CD which has a ton of Giant Steps false starts and incomplete takes. ← The 'bonus' disc in the box has nine different takes of GS (2 false starts, 5 incomplete takes and 2 alternates) including some studio chatter (discussing 'telling a story' as opposed to just 'making the changes')... there's similar stuff for 'Nailma', 'Like Sonny' and two alternates from 'Plays the Blues'. Probably not a disc you return to often but it is fascinating to hear these great musicians getting these now-legendary tunes together. Trane stops one take and instructs Cedar Walton to play a specific lick in the head. The disc is in a reproduction of a Scotch tape reel box, which is a nice touch. If you have all the Atlantic albums you needn't feel you're missing anything too revelatory though. Quote
Soul Stream Posted June 25, 2005 Report Posted June 25, 2005 Thanks Rosco... Funny enough. I was able to download all the additional Giant Steps material (the 9 extra takes) off of iTunes!!!!! Glad I didn't have to buy the box to get that stuff as I was super interested in hearing it. Thanks again. Quote
Soul Stream Posted June 25, 2005 Report Posted June 25, 2005 Also noticed an exchange before take 1...went something like this...l Voice 1(Coltane I'd presume)-"I want to tell a story, not just make the changes." Voice 2-"Well if you make the changes, that IS telling a story!"lol Voice 1-"Yeah, but I don't want to tell no lies!" Quote
Guest Posted March 29, 2006 Report Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) Rosco makes very good points about this tune. There are only three tonal centers in the tune. They are separated by a major third dividing the octive into four equal parts. Giant steps! You could try to focus on the three keys involved. The tune can be correctly played using three major scales. Good luck :-) Doh! Yes, I mean three equal parts :-) Edited March 30, 2006 by flat5 Quote
Free For All Posted March 29, 2006 Report Posted March 29, 2006 flat5 said: They are separated by a major third dividing the octive into four equal parts. You mean three equal parts, right? Quote
BruceW Posted March 29, 2006 Report Posted March 29, 2006 Soul Stream said: Thanks for the good advice Rosco. As someone who's been tackling this a while. Can you give me a digital exercise that's a good starting point? Try 1235 or 1311 or 1231 or 1313 or 1212; i think 1235 is probably a good start changing the 3 to b3 for minor changes. Then when you are halfway comfortable try a different pattern or reverse them. Quote
Jazz Kat Posted March 31, 2006 Report Posted March 31, 2006 This tune is a bitch. Get the feel for the changes first. Quote
Sundog Posted March 31, 2006 Report Posted March 31, 2006 BruceW said: i think 1235 is probably a good start changing the 3 to b3 for minor changes. Then when you are halfway comfortable try a different pattern or reverse them. Totally agree, one of my pet patterns. Quote
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