Giant Steps

[doubleM]

It's time to tackle this bad-boy in my improv. class. I get the form, patterns like 3-5-1, 1-2-3-5, 8-7-b7-8, etc., but when it's played at tempo. I'm trying to find ways to not sound like a pattern generator. Besides the obvious solution (practice, ", "), I'm wondering if any of you seasoned pupils of this artform have any empirical suggestions?

[JSngry]

Start playing it as a ballad and take it from there. Seriously.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sounds like GREAT advice!

[doubleM]

Makes sense. My teacher (Darrell Grant, a MoFo) had us playing it as a Bossa Nova, a la Pat Metheny, but soon decided that to swing it would be better. . Now it's just about getting past the point of playing his suggestions and patterns and coming up w/ something unique and thoughtful. And not sounding like !! Thanks, Jim!

[JSngry]

Got it from Slide Hampton at an Aebersold clinic about 25 years ago. Made sense then, makes sense now.

And not just for this one tune either.

[Free For All]

I've always struggled with this tune as well as Countdown. Moment's Notice and Lazybird come much easier to me. I had a brief epiphany regarding GS when I played an arrangement of it that was in 3/4. This allowed more time in each key center and encouraged a more melodic approach, at least for me. I guess I don't like dealing with it at a "Cherokee" tempo- it becomes a jam session cutting tune.

I have heard few play it at that tempo and sound more than mechanical. The modulation process goes by so quickly there's not much chance to do more than run the changes.

There is an arrangement of GS by Tony Klatka and Frank Tiberi in Woody's book- man, you should hear Frank (in his mid-70s!) lay into those Trane tunes (there are also charts on Countdown, Central Park West and Lazybird in the book)!

I have also played it as a medium bossa, which is fun, but I always feel that people think if you don't play it super-fast you're just a big wussie. So I tend to just not do it.

EDIT: As far as ways to practice tunes like this, I concur with those who say START SLOW! Try to play bass lines to learn to connect the key centers. Practice "guide tones" (chord tones that move with stepwise voice leading) in half notes to start with. I think to make it work it's about connecting the key centers as opposed to isolating each one. Try to play over the bar lines you might normally avoid to experience different types of phrasing. Good luck!

Edited February 19, 2004 by Free For All

[Jim Alfredson]

Starting slow works for the aforementioned, obligatory Cherokee too!

[JSngry]

As far as ways to practice tunes like this, I concur with those who say START SLOW!.....Try to play over the bar lines you might normally avoid to experience different types of phrasing. Good luck!

Well, there you have it. Nothing pisses me off quicker than to hear some cat running changes with all the math right but no variety in phrasing, inflection, accents, etc. There's no MUSIC there, dammit!

Taking a tune slow lets you get inside it better, to discover the nooks and crannies, and to free yourself up to FEEL the music, and not be so blinded by the mathematical challenges, which will take care of themselves over time, if you're properly informed from jump street. That's just the way this shit works, if you can be patient enough to let it.

Now, "full disclosure" time - I don't play "Giant Stpes". I don't WANT to play it. I've spent time with it, and know what the deal is, but there's nothing there for me personally. so I leave it alone. For those whom it DOES offer something personally, go for it. But it's a firmly held opinion of mine that you don't HAVE to be able to play that tune to be a valid jazz musician. What you do have to do is to be aware of it, know what's going on with it, know the implications of it, know what it was to Trane, and evaluate what it can be for you. Then you can make an informed decision as to whether or not to pursue it past the level of familiarity.

Being a valid jazz musician is not always a matter of being able to handle every tune and every challenge. Although, that is probably necessary these days if you want to be a full-time professional jazz musician, to have it be your life's sustenance. That's the nature of the market today, by and large. But as far as PERSONAL validity goes, which is what matters most to me, I think that if you play whatever you choose to play from a basis of solid, really solid, awareness and information, that you're entitled, no, compelled, to make decisions about what you do and do not do. And if "Giant Steps" ultimately presents you with nothing more than a mathematical challenge, then it is your obligation to let it go in favor of something more relevant to your personal being.

That's not to say that it's ok to blow the tune off, to let it sit unexamined. Quite the contrary. Laziness, be it mental, physical, or intellectual, is not a valid grounds for anything, even in these post-modern, irony-saturated times. Uh-uh. You need to confront the tune because it is incredibly important and significant in the evoluton of the music. You can't just pretend it never happened, because it did. But I know cats who obsess over shit like this, who worry themselves silly over making those changes, when in fact they might be better served by playing some blues, some REAL blues or something else that doesn't make them WORRY so damn much with no end in sight. When a door doesn't open after so long, it might be wise to look for another one that does, dig?

Now, my partner Pete Gallio is a "Giant Steps" playing motherfucker. Cat can play that shit inside out, sideways, ANYways, and be musical as shit doing it. But that's Pete - that tune and what it's all about fits who he is as a person and as an artist. But it doesn't fit me. Still, we coexist together quite well because we respect each other's differences as well as our commonalities, and THAT'S where it's at, if you ask me. The true "litmus test" of your personal, not professional, but personal, validity as a jazz musician is not how well you can play a particular song, but how well you can play yourself. That's no small undertaking, and again, it does not allow for laziness or willful incompetence in any manner. Cats talking about how chops and harmony and all that shit are "obsolete" and such have either gotten past all that and are talking about themselves personally (and yes, it can be done, has been done, and hopefully will continue to be done), or else are bullshitting you (and maybe themselves). You've GOT to know. "I'm a unique individual" is NOT adequate validation for you as a jazz musician. As a human being, yeah. But THAT line is backed up out the door, onto the street, and around several corners, ya'know?

It just means that when you come to a crossroads of any sort, that you remain true to yourself and that you know exactly why you choose to take whatever path it is that you choose to take, and that you pursue that path as dilligently, as seriously, and as informed as you possibly can. Warne Marsh called it "taking responsibility for your own melody", and I think that says it all. Be true to yourself, but don't fuck around with it. Because it ain't there for that.

Just my two cents, and no doubt overpriced by three.

[Joe G]

Just my two cents, and no doubt overpriced by three.

Bloody Hell! I got my money's worth from that post.

[Rooster_Ties]

Nothing pisses me off quicker than to hear some cat running changes with all the math right but no variety in phrasing, inflection, accents, etc. There's no MUSIC there, dammit!!

Worth the price of admission, all by itself!!!

[doubleM]

Oh, Yes. The reference to math w/r/t this tune drove it home. I've been listening to J.C.'s many alternate takes from the Atlantic box and it occurs to me that he probably sat down and worked through (very methodically) all of the possible permutations and patterns when blowin' over this. But his ability to put this out in such a moving way, and with so much variety...makes me want to put in the time. At least some time.

[Free For All]

Oh, Yes. The reference to math w/r/t this tune drove it home. I've been listening to J.C.'s many alternate takes from the Atlantic box and it occurs to me that he probably sat down and worked through (very methodically) all of the possible permutations and patterns when blowin' over this. But his ability to put this out in such a moving way, and with so much variety...makes me want to put in the time. At least some time.

Yes, doubleM, you should put in the time and check it out- I think that was an important point in Jim's post. You need to decide how you feel about the tune. Besides, if nothing else, practicing some cyclic gymnastics will do nothing but help your playing. Just remember that patterns and such represent a means to an end, not the end itself. I've said that before but I think it bears repeating.

[Free For All]

Now, my partner Pete Gallio is a "Giant Steps" playing motherfucker. Cat can play that shit inside out, sideways, ANYways, and be musical as shit doing it. But that's Pete - that tune and what it's all about fits who he is as a person and as an artist.

Yeah, I was actually thinking about Pete when I posted. Now he can play on that tune and make it sound melodic and decidedly UN-mechanical. But of course, we all know Pete's insane. B)

[Soul Stream]

I just did a Giant Steps search and found this thread. Good stuff, especially from Jim as usual. Especially the Slide Hampton stuff...taking it at ballad pace. That's what I've been doing. I'm not capable of really playing this. Just understanding it, even at a ballad tempo is odd. But my ear really digs the SOUND of the changes, they're very, very pretty beyond the testosterone implications of proving oneself.

I would like to play it even at ballad tempo even just to learn, but don't know if I can make any music out of it personally.

[AllenLowe]

I think there's a Phineas Newborne solo piano version as a ballad, somewhere...

when I met Tommy Flanagan years ago, I asked him what it was like to be in the studio with Coltrane and have to get a sheet of music for Giant Steps and than just record it immediately - he said, impassively, "oh, it was just a set of chord changes..."

Edited June 18, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Soul Stream]

I also found a nice version where Ray Brown plays it Ballad style on arco bass on his "Some of my best friends are..piano players) CD. And a nice latin version by Irvin Mayfield.

Nice to see ala' Slide Hampton that Ray Brown, the ultimate master, sees justice in doing it as a ballad.

[Big Wheel]

Interesting that I'm just now noticing FFA's comments on Giant Steps vis-a-vis Countdown, Moment's notice, etc. I too have always been much more attracted to those other tunes (though I don't feel comfortable yet playing any of them...)

[Soul Stream]

My fav has always been 26-2 as a tune. It just seems to swing super hard using Coltrane changes.

[BruceW]

This is a very very informative thread. I'm a vibes player and believe me, GS is a hard tune but does provide loads and loads of insight into playing. A Bossa Nova or ballad is a most excellent choice for getting into the structure or the tune. Use what you can use.

[GregN]

I actually have the whole thing transcribed for guitar with standard notation and tab. PM me if you'd like a copy.

greg

[Kalo]

Wow!

This thread is what the Organissimo Forums are all about.

Lots of provocation for thought -- and for action.

Sangrey, as usual, leading the charge. Now, THAT'S what I call a post.

As for me, with my limited skills, I'd best approach GS, if ever, at a Morton Feldman pace, let alone as a ballad. (Call me "SLOWnimsky.")*

My favorite non-'trane version would have to be Dave Burrell's stride rendition on his The Jelly Roll Joys(Gazell). The rest of the disc is excellent, too.

*Extra obscure bonus joke.

Edited June 21, 2005 by Kalo

[Soul Stream]

One of my favorite versions is Marchel Ivery's version on his "Marchel's Mode" CD. Cedar Walton is on the recording and, from the liner notes, the producer asked the guys to play Giant Steps. CW was pretty reluctant but was persuaded to do it. Needless to say the whole band kicks and Marchel really kills. He's my hero.

[Geoff]

Wow!

This thread is what the Organissimo Forums are all about.

Lots of provocation for thought -- and for action.

Sangrey, as usual, leading the charge. Now, THAT'S what I call a post.

As for me, with my limited skills, I'd best approach GS, if ever, at a Morton Feldman pace, let alone as a ballad. (Call me "SLOWnimsky.")*

My favorite non-'trane version would have to be Dave Burrell's stride rendition on his The Jelly Roll Joys(Gazell). The rest of the disc is excellent, too.

*Extra obscure bonus joke.

←

I'd love to hear an album of Morton Feldman influenced Jazz Standards.

[Soul Stream]

Are there certain patterns that are helpful to get soloing on over the non-iiVI sections? I still getting the chords and their proper inversions under my fingers at a nice pace. Might be trying to lamely solo sometime soon but might need some suggestions if ya'll have any.

Sangry....I know you've said these changes aren't something you feel are part of your musical makeup. I certainly respect a musician who knows who he is (I certainly don't!). However, these changes seem fun and a nice diversion from the usual way of thinking. Like to see your take on it.

[JSngry]

Fun? Yeah, sure, until your head hits the brick wall for about the 500th time...

Actually, all of Trane's work is like that for me. I can't go there while playing, because it takes over completely (or at least tries to), and I find myself tryiong to "play Trane" more than trying to "play Jim". Listening, of course, is a whole 'nother matter, and that leaves a "spiritual" influence that works a lot better for me than does a specific stylistic one.

Maybe it's just a hump I need to get over, but jeez, I look around, and far better people than I have been trying to get over that same hump for the last 40 or so years, and to what end? If it was going to happen, shouldn't it have happened by now?

I'm playing the odds on this one.