2014-15 college bowl games

[GA Russell]

Yeah, and it has been kind of a one-sided deal lately, with Navy ripping off something like 7 straight, there's still something about it.

paps, Navy has won 13 in a row!

http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/*/Article_2014-12-13-FBC-Army-Navy/id-54ca47571c884577a1b8f68656db6b3e

[papsrus]

Go Army

[Jim R]

My issue with FSU -- putting aside their up and down play all year, which left them highly suspect -- is basically that not just Winston, but the whole program embodies and promotes even crafts the kind of self-centered, immature athlete so typical today.

I grew up a Stanford fan, and that has continued for many years. I've admired dozens of their players and coaches. Unfortunately, now I have to cringe every time I'm watching a Seahawks game and it's mentioned that Richard Sherman went to Stanford.

[Jazzmoose]

Go Army

Them's fightin' words!

[Dan Gould]

My issue with FSU -- putting aside their up and down play all year, which left them highly suspect -- is basically that not just Winston, but the whole program embodies and promotes even crafts the kind of self-centered, immature athlete so typical today.

Just noticed this - Jesus Christ paps, the whole program "crafts" these players? Do you really think they've coached Winston to try to score on his own instead of making that pitch?

The NYT series on how the Tallahassee police have dealt with football players' misbehavior was an eye opener and pissed the hell out of me, but that's the cops doing these things, not the program. Did the program make it happen? No, too many parts of society coddle athletes in too many ways.

And if by chance you are only referring to self-centeredness or immaturity on the field, I'm pretty sure the team doesn't spend a lot of time encouraging that.

[papsrus]

My issue with FSU -- putting aside their up and down play all year, which left them highly suspect -- is basically that not just Winston, but the whole program embodies and promotes even crafts the kind of self-centered, immature athlete so typical today.

Just noticed this - Jesus Christ paps, the whole program "crafts" these players? Do you really think they've coached Winston to try to score on his own instead of making that pitch?

The NYT series on how the Tallahassee police have dealt with football players' misbehavior was an eye opener and pissed the hell out of me, but that's the cops doing these things, not the program. Did the program make it happen? No, too many parts of society coddle athletes in too many ways.

And if by chance you are only referring to self-centeredness or immaturity on the field, I'm pretty sure the team doesn't spend a lot of time encouraging that.

Well, perhaps I overstated things a wee bit. I would hope they coached him to make the pitch, but he didn't.

Kind of like they told him he was suspended for a game, and he showed up on the sidelines in full gear (causing Fisher to throw his hands up in a WTF gesture that tells me, the "coaching" isn't getting through, in some important ways).

Fisher chose the path of positive reinforcement / promotion for his star athlete, rather than take another path. I can't imagine a Bear Bryant, for instance, taking the crap that Fisher did from this kid.

I agree that too many parts of society coddle athletes, but the athletic departments, alumni, etc., are part of that machine. Maybe the driving force.

Just seems to me these big-time programs put wins before education. That hardly even needs to be stated, but you get what you pay for (figuratively, and in some cases literally).

Maybe I'm naive in thinking it should be the other way around. There seems to have been ample opportunity for "education" in the case of Winston.

Let me ask you this. If you're an NFL team (say, the Bucs) would you draft the guy?

He can already make the NFL throw, through tight windows to the spot where the receiver is going to be -- throwing the receiver open rather than throwing to an open receiver, as it were, which is one of the main adjustments from college to the NFL. He's a more "pro-ready" passer than Mariota, I think. Yet, what's going to happen when you put millions of dollars in his pocket and let him loose?

Edited January 5, 2015 by papsrus

[Dan Gould]

Couldn't care less what happens then ...I'll be glad he's out of the uniform and the school. In my heart of hearts I think the Tallahassee and campus police helped him, intentionally or not, to get away with rape.

[Cali]

Jameis Winston's dad said today that his son was entering the 2015 NFL draft. We are about to see what objective NFL owners and scouts think of him. I'll bet dollars to donuts he'll be drafted ahead of Mariota. In fact, I bet he will be the number one, overall, selection. Remember the comments here; "Winston's not in the same league as Mariota, as a football player or a leader. He'll too often look to make the selfish play so he can show off his arm rather than make the right play", and all the other negativity about him. You're going to find out how wrong you are. I know many of you love Mariota and pulled for him because he appears to be the opposite of Winston, character wise. But I'm telling you that Mariota, god bless him, can't carry Winston's shoes as a quarterback. You'll see.

[Aggie87]

Jameis Winston's dad said today that his son was entering the 2015 NFL draft. We are about to see what objective NFL owners and scouts think of him. I'll bet dollars to donuts he'll be drafted ahead of Mariota. In fact, I bet he will be the number one, overall, selection. Remember the comments here; "Winston's not in the same league as Mariota, as a football player or a leader. He'll too often look to make the selfish play so he can show off his arm rather than make the right play", and all the other negativity about him. You're going to find out how wrong you are. I know many of you love Mariota and pulled for him because he appears to be the opposite of Winston, character wise. But I'm telling you that Mariota, god bless him, can't carry Winston's shoes as a quarterback. You'll see.

While that may all be true, Mariota is the "right kinda guy". Winston simply isn't. I'd rather have a RKG that is hard working and teachable lead my team than a (probable) rapist who has the tools but a 10 cent brain.

[Cali]

Jameis Winston's dad said today that his son was entering the 2015 NFL draft. We are about to see what objective NFL owners and scouts think of him. I'll bet dollars to donuts he'll be drafted ahead of Mariota. In fact, I bet he will be the number one, overall, selection. Remember the comments here; "Winston's not in the same league as Mariota, as a football player or a leader. He'll too often look to make the selfish play so he can show off his arm rather than make the right play", and all the other negativity about him. You're going to find out how wrong you are. I know many of you love Mariota and pulled for him because he appears to be the opposite of Winston, character wise. But I'm telling you that Mariota, god bless him, can't carry Winston's shoes as a quarterback. You'll see.

While that may all be true, Mariota is the "right kinda guy". Winston simply isn't. I'd rather have a RKG that is hard working and teachable lead my team than a (probable) rapist who has the tools but a 10 cent brain.

I don't buy the rapist tag put on Winston. If you know about history in the south you would know that rape accusations of white women was the primary reason given for lynching thousands of black men. I hate to bring it up but it's true.

What is a RKG and where did you get the idea that Winston wasn't hard working? How do you fix your mind to think that a Heisman Trophy winner, the leader of a national championship football team and an All-American in 2 Division 1 NCAA sports doesn't work hard?

Edited January 7, 2015 by Cali

[Dan Gould]

If it wasn't rape, Cali why did his roommate/teammate delete the cell phone video they made?

[Aggie87]

I don't buy the rapist tag put on Winston. If you know about history in the south you would know that rape accusations of white women was the primary reason given for lynching thousands of black men. I hate to bring it up but it's true.

What is a RKG and where did you get the idea that Winston wasn't hard working? How do you fix your mind to think that a Heisman Trophy winner, the leader of a national championship football team and an All-American in 2 Division 1 NCAA sports doesn't work hard?

I think he's just got enough natural talent that superseded his need to work hard.

But he doesn't strike me as the brightest guy in the world - witness this recent quote regarding FSU's first loss with him at QB: "It hurts badder than whatever you can imagine". Who says "badder"?

If it were just the rape allegations alone, and there was an immediate response by the university AND the Tallahassee PD, and they determined there was not enough evidence to indict him, that's one thing. But stonewalling as long as they did is VERY curious.

And then look at the other things - shooting squirrels on campus, shooting up an apartment complex to the tune of $5K worth of damage, stealing soda from Burger King, stealing Crab Legs from the supermarket, and making very misogynistic comments in the middle of a school cafeteria or somewhere.

He's consistently shown himself to not be very bright, if you ask me. And entitled. Which makes me think it's VERY possible he raped a woman, and that there were coverups involved.

[Cali]

If it wasn't rape, Cali why did his roommate/teammate delete the cell phone video they made?

I don't know the answer to that. However, if it was rape, why was he the only one accused? If there were teammates/roommates present during a rape they all would be charged.

Will someone please tell me what RKG means?

[Aggie87]

Right Kinda Guy. I put it in quotes before using the acronym. Sorry, i assumed that made sense.

[papsrus]

Jameis Winston's dad said today that his son was entering the 2015 NFL draft. We are about to see what objective NFL owners and scouts think of him. I'll bet dollars to donuts he'll be drafted ahead of Mariota. In fact, I bet he will be the number one, overall, selection. Remember the comments here; "Winston's not in the same league as Mariota, as a football player or a leader. He'll too often look to make the selfish play so he can show off his arm rather than make the right play", and all the other negativity about him. You're going to find out how wrong you are. I know many of you love Mariota and pulled for him because he appears to be the opposite of Winston, character wise. But I'm telling you that Mariota, god bless him, can't carry Winston's shoes as a quarterback. You'll see.

To clarify, since you're quoting me, I also said Winston has the more NFL-ready arm. I've said that he can make the NFL-type reads and throw into tight windows where the receiver is going to be -- throw them open, in other words -- rather than just throw to open receivers, which a lot of college QBs do well.

That "talent" doesn't override the sense I have that he is prone to making bad decisions (both on and off the field), selfish decisions. (Sticking to football, I offered as an example his not pitching the ball to an open back, choosing instead to try to get the TD for himself in the semifinal.)

It's one thing to have talent, it's another to make the right choices -- on the field and in life. If he had a level head on his shoulders, which he clearly does not at this point, he would without doubt be a better pick than Mariota. But seems to me Mariota is much more mature in his decision-making, which is the key in the NFL. And life.

The alleged victim is suing the school. I can't imagine someone pursing this legal case if she wasn't convinced she was assaulted and kicked to the curb by the powers that be in Tallahassee.

Edited January 8, 2015 by papsrus

[papsrus]

And I should add, the recent bad behaviors of some NFL players that came to light this past season and became a huge issue for the league, will likely weigh against Winston when he's being evaluated by NFL franchises thinking about drafting him.

As they say, you don't want the face of your franchise to be a mug shot.

[Cali]

Right Kinda Guy. I put it in quotes before using the acronym. Sorry, i assumed that made sense.

I missed that. Thanks.

[Cali]

Jameis Winston's dad said today that his son was entering the 2015 NFL draft. We are about to see what objective NFL owners and scouts think of him. I'll bet dollars to donuts he'll be drafted ahead of Mariota. In fact, I bet he will be the number one, overall, selection. Remember the comments here; "Winston's not in the same league as Mariota, as a football player or a leader. He'll too often look to make the selfish play so he can show off his arm rather than make the right play", and all the other negativity about him. You're going to find out how wrong you are. I know many of you love Mariota and pulled for him because he appears to be the opposite of Winston, character wise. But I'm telling you that Mariota, god bless him, can't carry Winston's shoes as a quarterback. You'll see.

To clarify, since you're quoting me, I also said Winston has the more NFL-ready arm. I've said that he can make the NFL-type reads and throw into tight windows where the receiver is going to be -- throw them open, in other words -- rather than just throw to open receivers, which a lot of college QBs do well.

That "talent" doesn't override the sense I have that he is prone to making bad decisions (both on and off the field), selfish decisions. (Sticking to football, I offered as an example his not pitching the ball to an open back, choosing instead to try to get the TD for himself in the semifinal.)

It's one thing to have talent, it's another to make the right choices -- on the field and in life. If he had a level head on his shoulders, which he clearly does not at this point, he would without doubt be a better pick than Mariota. But seems to me Mariota is much more mature in his decision-making, which is the key in the NFL. And life.

The alleged victim is suing the school. I can't imagine someone pursing this legal case if she wasn't convinced she was assaulted and kicked to the curb by the powers that be in Tallahassee.

I'm challenging your statement that Winston is not in the same league as Mariota as a football player. I'm saying the pros say he is better. As a leader, he led his team to two undefeated regular seasons and a national championship. His teammates would run through a brick wall for him. He is unquestionable a great team leader. We can have differing opinions but the facts don't lie. FSU's record speaks for itself.

As for your example of him being prone to making bad decisions and being selfish (and I'm addressing football here, since you said both on the field and off). You cited one example, which I don't agree with, BTW, and ignore all the good decisions he made for twenty-six straight games. Talk about picking nits, that's just silly.

Hey, you don't like the guy. I get it. But don't just make stuff up and try to make it fit through the prism of your biased perceptions. Please understand, I am not and never have been an FSU fan. I'm only trying to be objective about who I think is the best college football player in the country.

[papsrus]

As for your example of him being prone to making bad decisions and being selfish (and I'm addressing football here, since you said both on the field and off). You cited one example, which I don't agree with, BTW, and ignore all the good decisions he made for twenty-six straight games. Talk about picking nits, that's just silly.

Hey, you don't like the guy. I get it. But don't just make stuff up and try to make it fit through the prism of your biased perceptions. Please understand, I am not and never have been an FSU fan. I'm only trying to be objective about who I think is the best college football player in the country.

If you just look at the drop off in his stats you'll see he went from 40 TDs and 10 INTs in 2013 (excellent) to 25 TDs and 18 INTs in 2014 (average). That's not a "bias" or "making stuff up." That's a fact. And those numbers clearly call into question his decision-making on the field. He also tends to allow his frustrations get the better of him and throw temper tantrums on the sidelines when things don't go his way. Another negative check in the maturity column.

Already said he has a great arm and played in a pro-style offense, so he has the advantage of familiarity with the NFL system. But if an NFL team determines another QB has the talent and smarts to adjust to a pro-style offense, they may opt for the latter.

I hope the guy gets his head straight, matures, stops getting himself in off-field situations that belie his immaturity and finds success at the next level. I'm just not sure I'd bet my first-round pick on it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by papsrus

[Cali]

The 18 interceptions were largely a product of FSU losing their top receivers and having to break in freshman receivers who often ran the wrong routes. FSU's running game suffered from their top running backs Freeman and Wilder, going to the NFL. Very simply, Winston had to carry this team more than he did the previous season.

Winston doesn't get enough credit for his football I.Q. Notre Dame's head coach Brian Kelly said, "If I'm making that first pick and I need a quarterback, I'm taking Winston because of his football intelligence." And his coaches said he was a joy to work with. Corey Clark of the Tallahassee Democrat wrote, "his teammates, both on the baseball diamond and the football field, really liked him. And more importantly, they respected him. Not only because he won - a lot - but because of how hard he worked." This dispels several claims made here;

1. He doesn't work hard

2. He's dumb

3. He's unteachable

4. He makes bad football decisions

Not being intelligent enough is a claim made about many superstar athletes, from Michael Jordan to Magic Johnson and beyond, and frankly, a lot of us are sick of that label. Those are code words to many of us, if you know what I mean.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Cali

[Aggie87]

His off field transgressions certainly bolster the claims that's he's not very bright, and is coddled and has a sense of entitlement.

I've never suggested he's not talented on the field. I don't think he works as hard as you obviously do, but I resent the suggestion that I'm being racist because of it.

[papsrus]

ditto

[Cali]

His off field transgressions certainly bolster the claims that's he's not very bright, and is coddled and has a sense of entitlement.

I've never suggested he's not talented on the field. I don't think he works as hard as you obviously do, but I resent the suggestion that I'm being racist because of it.

I have only evaluated his football skills and accomplishments. His off field problems can be discussed by others. Just because he has exhibited questionable behavior off field does not take away all the things he is superior at. That's all I'm saying.

What secret knowledge are you privy to about his work habits? Obviously, you know something his coaches, teammates, scouts and scribes covering this team don't. I'm not the one saying he works hard. The people he works with are saying it. Yet you contend that you know better than all of them. Your claim is totally unsubstantiated.

This bum isn't smart enough to lead an NCAA football team to two back-to-back undefeated seasons and a national championship. Hell, it doesn't take hard work to lead 10 men to do that, only natural talent. Where does that natural talent come from? And to think he did that making bad decisions all the way. I guess he's just a stupid, lazy bum that got lucky.

[papsrus]

What secret knowledge are you privy to about his work habits? Obviously, you know something his coaches, teammates, scouts and scribes covering this team don't. I'm not the one saying he works hard. The people he works with are saying it. Yet you contend that you know better than all of them. Your claim is totally unsubstantiated.

This bum isn't smart enough to lead an NCAA football team to two back-to-back undefeated seasons and a national championship. Hell, it doesn't take hard work to lead 10 men to do that, only natural talent. Where does that natural talent come from? And to think he did that making bad decisions all the way. I guess he's just a stupid, lazy bum that got lucky.

It's not a zero-sum game. He's not either a genius or an idiot. You've erected a straw horse.

Lots of guys "work hard" on the football field. I'm sure he does, too.

The practice field was his refuge, we kept hearing. A refuge from what? You evaluate the whole guy, not just the talent in his arm.

And again, some of his stats this year point to a significant falloff in his play. And FSU loses talented players every year, so your argument that his drop in play was the direct result of a falloff in talent around him doesn't really wash. He had one of the most talented receivers in college football to throw to in senior Rashad Greene.

From the Seminoles' own website, talking about Greene:

Without a doubt one of the nation’s top wide receivers and the veteran leader of Florida State’s high-powered offense. All-America and Biletnikoff Award candidate who has led FSU in receiving for three straight years. Intelligent and speedy receiver with no flaws in his game.

Plus reliable Nick O'Leary. Plus ....

He wasn't surrounded by a bunch of slouches, rather, some of the top talent in the country. How often did I hear Fisher say this one one of the best teams he's ever had at FSU?

I do hope the kid finds success.

[Cali]

"Lots of guys "work hard" on the football field. I'm sure he does, too." This is a direct contradiction to false claims made on this thread, remember "I don't think he works as hard as you obviously do" and "I think he's just got enough natural talent that superseded his need to work hard".

There are many football related claims about him here that we obviously disagree about. I could address them one by one, but what would be the point. Just remember what was said here when Winston is drafted #1 and Mariota is drafted considerably lower.