2014-15 college bowl games

[Aggie87]

If he worked as hard as you claim and was as great as you claim, FSU would have absolutely dominated their opponents this season. But they didn't.

Winston played only as well as he had to to pull out come-from-behind wins against lesser teams with lesser talent all season long. He made mistakes, poor decisions (how about pushing that ref ON THE FIELD DURING THE GAME and getting away with it - for most players that's an automatic ejection).

In retrospect TCU should've been the 4th team in the playoffs based on their performance, not FSU. But FSU got it only because they got the benefit of the doubt due to their weak, undefeated status.

Winston's got a more prototypical build and arm for the pros than Johnny Football did. I'd still be just as wary of drafting him as teams were with Manziel.

[Cali]

Wow! So you insist beyond all proof and first hand knowledge that Winston didn't work hard. And he wasn't a great football player. Leading his team to an undefeated season when they had a target on their back all season as the defending national champions means nothing to you. I submit to you again, who else has done that? You still haven't answered that question. Manziel didn't do it, Mariota didn't do it. Who did? Mariota lost 3 games at Oregon with no undefeated regular seasons.

[Aggie87]

You come across as a serious Winston fan boy. Not much else.

His team was undefeated, nobody's arguing that. They were barely undefeated against a not-very-tough schedule, and had to come from behind to do so, and Winston threw more interceptions this season than the previous one. He didn't have as good a season.

Playing a good opponent finally in Oregon, they were blown out 59-20. That tells me FSU were overrated this season.

[papsrus]

"Lots of guys "work hard" on the football field. I'm sure he does, too." This is a direct contradiction to false claims made on this thread, remember "I don't think he works as hard as you obviously do" and "I think he's just got enough natural talent that superseded his need to work hard".

There are many football related claims about him here that we obviously disagree about. I could address them one by one, but what would be the point. Just remember what was said here when Winston is drafted #1 and Mariota is drafted considerably lower.

FWIW, I don't think I said either of those two things you quoted. You're misquoting me in trying to rebut what I said.

My contention is that his decision-making is immature, both on-field and off. The latter seems obvious. The former is borne out by the falloff in his play this past season despite being surrounded by some of the best talent in the country.

He's got a great arm, talent, I'm sure works hard, but you have to assess the whole package. And he ain't that. That's all.

As far as Winston leading them to an undefeated season this past year, he didn't play in the Clemson game (despite showing up on the sidelines in full gear while being suspended). The backup QB played that game, so ... The backup's undefeated this season! Must be a No. 1 pick?

[Cali]

" You come across as a serious Winston fan boy. Not much else."

So now you resort to name calling. Well I'm nobody's fan boy or any kind of boy at all. I'm a grown-ass man. I can think of a few names that apply to you but I won't go there.

[Cali]

"Lots of guys "work hard" on the football field. I'm sure he does, too." This is a direct contradiction to false claims made on this thread, remember "I don't think he works as hard as you obviously do" and "I think he's just got enough natural talent that superseded his need to work hard".

There are many football related claims about him here that we obviously disagree about. I could address them one by one, but what would be the point. Just remember what was said here when Winston is drafted #1 and Mariota is drafted considerably lower.

FWIW, I don't think I said either of those two things you quoted. You're misquoting me in trying to rebut what I said.

My contention is that his decision-making is immature, both on-field and off. The latter seems obvious. The former is borne out by the falloff in his play this past season despite being surrounded by some of the best talent in the country.

He's got a great arm, talent, I'm sure works hard, but you have to assess the whole package. And he ain't that. That's all.

As far as Winston leading them to an undefeated season this past year, he didn't play in the Clemson game (despite showing up on the sidelines in full gear while being suspended). The backup QB played that game, so ... The backup's undefeated this season! Must be a No. 1 pick?

Read my post again. I didn't misquote you. I said you were contradicting false claims made on this thread. I didn't say you made this particular claim.

For the last time, he was handicapped by 7 players from last year going to the NFL. That means blue-chip players, not just regular starters. That kind of attrition affects any team.

[Aggie87]

More people - in every single state - think Winston is going to be a bust in the NFL, according to the current poll on ESPN.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Aggie87

[Aggie87]

" You come across as a serious Winston fan boy. Not much else."

So now you resort to name calling. Well I'm nobody's fan boy or any kind of boy at all. I'm a grown-ass man. I can think of a few names that apply to you but I won't go there.

I apologize for the "Not much else" part. Uncalled for on my part.

[papsrus]

Read my post again. I didn't misquote you. I said you were contradicting false claims made on this thread. I didn't say you made this particular claim.

For the last time, he was handicapped by 7 players from last year going to the NFL. That means blue-chip players, not just regular starters. That kind of attrition affects any team.

Well, the implication appeared to be that I was contradicting myself, otherwise what's the point of quoting me then using someone else's quotes to point out a contradiction?

Anyways, we'll see about Winston. I'm sure he'll go high in the draft and have every opportunity to prove himself.

[Jazzmoose]

More people - in every single state - think Winston is going to be a bust in the NFL, according to the current poll on ESPN.

Which means dick.

[Aggie87]

More people - in every single state - think Winston is going to be a bust in the NFL, according to the current poll on ESPN.

Which means dick.

For my purpose it meant that most people don't seem to have as high an opinion of Mr. Winston as Cali has.

[Jim R]

Ok, I can see these...


Bust


Backup

Even this:
Starter

But...

Pro Bowler? Seriously??

[Jazzmoose]

More people - in every single state - think Winston is going to be a bust in the NFL, according to the current poll on ESPN.

Which means dick.

For my purpose it meant that most people don't seem to have as high an opinion of Mr. Winston as Cali has.

Which still means dick. Should I be shocked that most people dislike a flamboyant black quarterback in this country? We see the same arguments come up whenever a black quarterback comes along. Lazy, stupid, character issues, even "not the right kind of guy". Christ, I was surprised 'uppity' didn't make an appearance. I'll admit, I don't follow college football, and I know zip point shit about this guy, his play, the rape charges, or anything else; maybe this time all the cliches are correct. I don't know. But it'll take a hell of a lot more than "most people think" to convince me.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Jazzmoose

[papsrus]

Which still means dick. Should I be shocked that most people dislike a flamboyant black quarterback in this country? We see the same arguments come up whenever a black quarterback comes along. Lazy, stupid, character issues, even "not the right kind of guy". Christ, I was surprised 'uppity' didn't make an appearance. I'll admit, I don't follow college football, and I know zip point shit about this guy, his play, the rape charges, or anything else; maybe this time all the cliches are correct. I don't know. But it'll take a hell of a lot more than "most people think" to convince me.

Being a quarterback requires more than being able to throw a football through the middle of a tire from 20 yards away. Successful quarterbacks seem to share some common traits, generally rolled up under the broad category known as "leadership."

There have been plenty of great black quarterbacks in both college and the pros who have had all the characteristics you'd ever want in a QB: Doug Williams, Warren Moon, Donovan McNabb, the Seahawks' Russell Wilson today (one of the top QBs in the league, IMO).

Could Winston develop into a great leader? Sure. Does he demonstrate all those characteristics now? Nope.

This knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of anyone who happens to be black seems somewhat -- jaundiced.

IMO, etc.

Edited January 12, 2015 by papsrus

[paul secor]

The NFL draft is a crap shoot. We shall see how Winston pans out. I will say that if were running an NFL team, I wouldn't bet on him. Too many behavior issues, and the NFL already has enough problems with players who can't control their behavior.

[Jazzmoose]

Which still means dick. Should I be shocked that most people dislike a flamboyant black quarterback in this country? We see the same arguments come up whenever a black quarterback comes along. Lazy, stupid, character issues, even "not the right kind of guy". Christ, I was surprised 'uppity' didn't make an appearance. I'll admit, I don't follow college football, and I know zip point shit about this guy, his play, the rape charges, or anything else; maybe this time all the cliches are correct. I don't know. But it'll take a hell of a lot more than "most people think" to convince me.

Being a quarterback requires more than being able to throw a football through the middle of a tire from 20 yards away. Successful quarterbacks seem to share some common traits, generally rolled up under the broad category known as "leadership."

There have been plenty of great black quarterbacks in both college and the pros who have had all the characteristics you'd ever want in a QB: Doug Williams, Warren Moon, Donovan McNabb, the Seahawks' Russell Wilson today (one of the top QBs in the league, IMO).

Could Winston develop into a great leader? Sure. Does he demonstrate all those characteristics now? Nope.

This knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of anyone who happens to be black seems somewhat -- jaundiced.

IMO, etc.

And yet we heard these same criticisms about the quarterbacks you mention. These same lines come up EVERY TIME a black quarterback comes along. But I'm the one with the knee-jerk reaction...

And getting back to the original topic, Duckland is not so happy tonight!

[Cali]

Which still means dick. Should I be shocked that most people dislike a flamboyant black quarterback in this country? We see the same arguments come up whenever a black quarterback comes along. Lazy, stupid, character issues, even "not the right kind of guy". Christ, I was surprised 'uppity' didn't make an appearance. I'll admit, I don't follow college football, and I know zip point shit about this guy, his play, the rape charges, or anything else; maybe this time all the cliches are correct. I don't know. But it'll take a hell of a lot more than "most people think" to convince me.

Being a quarterback requires more than being able to throw a football through the middle of a tire from 20 yards away. Successful quarterbacks seem to share some common traits, generally rolled up under the broad category known as "leadership."

There have been plenty of great black quarterbacks in both college and the pros who have had all the characteristics you'd ever want in a QB: Doug Williams, Warren Moon, Donovan McNabb, the Seahawks' Russell Wilson today (one of the top QBs in the league, IMO).

Could Winston develop into a great leader? Sure. Does he demonstrate all those characteristics now? Nope.

This knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of anyone who happens to be black seems somewhat -- jaundiced.

IMO, etc.

And yet we heard these same criticisms about the quarterbacks you mention. These same lines come up EVERY TIME a black quarterback comes along. But I'm the one with the knee-jerk reaction...

And getting back to the original topic, Duckland is not so happy tonight!

Now will those same posters blame Mariota totally for their loss tonight like they did Winston when his team lost? Will they say he's not a leader because he didn't rally his team when their spirits were down? Was he exhibiting a champion's heart when he hung his head on the sideline while his team still had a chance? Was he making "bad decisions" that cost them the game? Was he selfishly trying to win the game by himself? Do you think Mariota works hard enough? After all, he looked very tired in the fourth quarter. To paraphrase a poster here, If he worked as hard as you claim and was as great as you claim, (Oregon) would have absolutely dominated their opponent. But they didn't.

If you were fair minded you would say all of these things about Mariota just like you did against Winston. And you would be wrong again. I don't think these things apply to either of them. I think of college football players as kids. I try to be objective and not be too critical of kids. They still have the capacity to improve.

I think Mariota is a wonderful football player. I just don't think he's as good as Winston. You were so eager to show how stellar Mariota was and what a bum Winston was, you went overboard and lost all objectivity. We all got to see his flaws and weaknesses in this game. When you make the pronouncements about how much better he is than Winston, remember to compare what their teams achieved. Winston, unlike Mariota led his team to two undefeated regular seasons. He also led his team to a national championship, which Mariota was unable to do.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Cali

[papsrus]

... You were so eager to show how stellar Mariota was and what a bum Winston was, you went overboard and lost all objectivity. We all got to see his flaws and weaknesses in this game. When you make the pronouncements about how much better he is than Winston, remember to compare what their teams achieved. Winston, unlike Mariota led his team to two undefeated regular seasons. He also led his team to a national championship, which Mariota was unable to do.

Oh man. I never said Winston was a bum. In fact, I said -- repeatedly -- he had the more NFL-ready skill set. I said I hoped he makes it in the NFL. I said he had the potential to become a great leader.

I also said he is not that now. That he has some obvious character/leadership issues, a "fact" you choose to ignore. He had an obvious falloff in his play this year, shown by his stats. A "fact" you choose to waive off as the result of having less talent around him -- a notion Jimbo Fisher disagrees with, as he repeatedly said this was the best team he's ever had.

I didn't see Mariota get in the head coach's face and yell at him on the sideline and throw a temper tantrum last night when things weren't going well.

I did notice he does not appear to have anywhere close the talent that Winston has. So I stand corrected there.

Clear enough for you? Or can I expect more mischaracterizations of what I've said? Because Oregon lost to Ohio State, which obviously means Winston is a great quarterback. Except that Oregon wiped the floor with FSU, so Ohio State would have likely demolished them, and Winston would be perceived as ... what?

And yet we heard these same criticisms about the quarterbacks you mention. These same lines come up EVERY TIME a black quarterback comes along. But I'm the one with the knee-jerk reaction...

I can't speak for the human race. Just myself.

Edited January 13, 2015 by papsrus

[T.D.]

Hard to believe that Cardale Jones of OSU was a third-stringer! Some pundits are now saying he should go pro. No opinion here, but the big precedent among Urban Meyer QBs (the Caucasian Tim Tebow) was not a hit in the NFL.

[Cali]

I did notice he does not appear to have anywhere close the talent that Winston has. So I stand corrected there.

Clear enough for you? Or can I expect more mischaracterizations of what I've said? Because Oregon lost to Ohio State, which obviously means Winston is a great quarterback. Except that Oregon wiped the floor with FSU, so Ohio State would have likely demolished them, and Winston would be perceived as ... what?

The No.1 draft choice.

Even though you finally conceded, like I said, Mariota can't carry Winston's cleats. You can't help but take that back with your sarcasm. So sad.

[papsrus]

I've said, repeatedly, Winston has the talent, but his performance dropped off this year despite having what his coach called the best team he's ever had, and he has some obvious character / leadership issues.

Judging by head to head results, you could make the argument, obviously, that Mariota outplayed Winston. Who's to say how bad the Buckeyes would have wiped the floor with Winston. He may have been picked off half a dozen times and lost by 40 points (kinda like he did to the Ducks).

Difference between you and me is that I'm not a fanboy. But don't let facts get in your way. You go ahead and keep carrying Winston's jock.

[Cali]

So, you insist on calling me a boy. That speaks volumes. Nothing left to discuss here.

[papsrus]

Fanboy.

Learn the difference.

Your implication that the term is racist is ill-informed (no surprise) and a feeble effort at race-baiting, which you've attempted before in this thread.

Nice try. (not really)

Enjoy

[Cali]

I stated in no uncertain terms that I was insulted by that term and the name calling to Aggie87. I'm sure you read it in this thread. As I said to him, I am not any kind of boy. But since you insist, if it walks like a duck...

[papsrus]

Forgive me. I didn't pour over your every word and so missed your sensitivities on the matter of being called a Winston fanboy, which you are.

But now that you've sidestepped my post pointing out exactly what I did say about Winston (contrary to what you misquote, mischaracterize and generally misstate what I've said for your own rhetorical purposes), and have descended into character assassination -- specifically, to be clear, insinuating that I'm a racist -- you're on your own.

See you in the funny pages.