Ornette Coleman, New Vocabulary

[clifford_thornton]

Thanks Chuck - that's the answer I was looking for.

[JSngry]

Here's the current version: http://www.local802afm.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/LS-1contract_fillable.pdf This is the standard "club date" contract, or was when I was in the union.

Recording: No portion of the performance(s) may be recorded, reproduced or transmitted from the place of performance in any manner whatsoever, in the absence of a written agreement with the American Federation of Musicians relating to and permitting such recording, reproduction or transmission.

Also: http://www.local802afm.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/single_fillable.pdf

3. No performance on the engagement shall be recorded, reproduced or transmitted from the place of performance in any manner or by any means whatsoever, in the absence of a specific written agreement with the Union or the American Federation of Musicians (the "AFM") relating to and permitting such recording, reproduction or transmission.

No idea if that was the language for the Local 42 contract in 1958 or not, but I'd imagine there was something similar in intent in place.

[David Ayers]

Just even reading legalese makes me feel vaguely guilty.

[clifford_thornton]

As oblique as Ornette is, I think that would ultimately be the reason to be "extra sure" the release is approved and though I contend these dudes aren't necessarily capital-E Evil they at least pulled one hell of a sketchy and/or dumb move. I never bothered picking up the disc so can't speak to its musical quality, but it's hard for me to want to engage it now.

[JSngry]

Whether it was sketchy and/or dumb or just plain ballsy will be determined by what kind of "hard proof" they can produce, and then by how the judge rules on it.

I'm wondering if there is a case to be made based on verbal agreement(s) made pre-guardianship to where the refusal to grant permission post-guardianship can be viewed as a breach of contract, or at least a violation of a legitimate good-faith agreement. That would be interesting, as would be any financial remediations ordered based on such a finding if the right judge gets the case.

FWIW, I've heard a few stories, 2nd hand but reliable, going back to the 1970s about people trying to make deals with Ornette to release things that he had recorded himself. Apparently there's mountains of it, or were, probably still is. The stories have been consistent - first they have a deal, then they don't, then they do, but it's gotta go thorough somebody different, then the terms change, then they have a deal, then they don't, etc. etc. etc. Charlie Brown & Lucy, non-stop.

Which, of course, is Ornette's prerogative. 100%. Just saying, as obvious as the obvious is in all this, the "obvious" might not be as "simple" as it at first looks. Or maybe it is.

Either way, it has to go to trial to be found out, and then, who will be the judge? Otherwise, there will be a settlement, no trial, and no real answers. Just a solution.

[xybert]

I feel like, yeah, a lot of it does come down to whatever hard proof the System Dialing guys have. I also think that, whichever way this goes, particularly if it's a settlement but even if it's a judgement, things are always going to be muddy as hell and there's always going to be a benefit of the doubt element, reputationally. Deny deny deny, stick to your story (especially if it's true!). And that's why i don't think that this will be career ending for the dudes involved, unless they are literally sue-nuked into non-existence. And when all is said and done and the dust settles these guys are part of jazz history, like it or not.

Buuuuuut i'm not an expert on the culture of musicians and the industry. Is there a precedent for someone effectively getting blacklisted by the jazz community, in a career ending way, for crossing someone of high standing? Without looking them up, Holzman aside, are these guys really involved in jazz circles? If not, would their actual peer group look upon them that unkindly?

[David Ayers]

I should think all sympathies will be with the underdogs here. Also, the Colemans do not seem to be warmly regarded as team players.

[JSngry]

If it was to happen, it wouldn't be as likely to happen at the player level (although that does happen as well, but it usually is for more personal reasons), but more likely on a management/booking level. And in that regard, Holzman's above the fray at this point, and Ziv is seemingly ensconced in below-the-radar teaching and performance activities, So that leaves McLean, who has been involved in a series of activities, but whose high-profile gig has been Antibalas. So if- IF - it was deemed "necessary" for something to happen, Antibalas would start having "weird things happen" with bookings, and their management would find out it's because of one Jordan McLean being in the band. And then...

Shit like this does happen. Work is so sparse and competition so high...there's a reason why everybody says all the right things to all the right people all the time, the politics of the business are really tight right now. I don't know if anybody in Denardo's camp is looking to play that game, hopefully not (and their lawyer's walking back of the "teaching" thing was duly noted here), just that if they did want to, they could. They have the name, they have the power of the name, and I suspect they have access to the money, somewhere, somehow, funds and/or benefactors. I don't think they're not entitled to that, wither, hell, they've more than earned it. Just saying, OC Inc. wants to tangle with Unisonybmg, no, they can't go there. But OC Inc wants to fuck up Jordan McLean, they can. And honestly, they might have a need to to "set an example", because, also honestly, I get an impression of Ornette letting all kind of people into his world over the years, playing all kinds of things, saying all kinds of things, letting all kinds of recordings happen, and then not necessarily keeping tight reins on all of that. Big can of worms here for OC Inc, quite possibly.

But it's a good record. Hell, I think it's a great record. And the System Dialing people have their story, which has not yet been told in detail yet. I would hope, for all kinds of reason, that this is not where the example gets set. There are surely more deserving examples to be set.

[JSngry]

I should think all sympathies will be with the underdogs here. Also, the Colemans do not seem to be warmly regarded as team players.

My only sympathies are with the truth coming out, all of it. And then, pay up as proper.

But not before then, and not more than that.

[xybert]

If it was to happen, it wouldn't be as likely to happen at the player level (although that does happen as well, but it usually is for more personal reasons), but more likely on a management/booking level. And in that regard, Holzman's above the fray at this point, and Ziv is seemingly ensconced in below-the-radar teaching and performance activities, So that leaves McLean, who has been involved in a series of activities, but whose high-profile gig has been Antibalas. So if- IF - it was deemed "necessary" for something to happen, Antibalas would start having "weird things happen" with bookings, and their management would find out it's because of one Jordan McLean being in the band. And then...

Shit like this does happen. Work is so sparse and competition so high...there's a reason why everybody says all the right things to all the right people all the time, the politics of the business are really tight right now. I don't know if anybody in Denardo's camp is looking to play that game, hopefully not (and their lawyer's walking back of the "teaching" thing was duly noted here), just that if they did want to, they could. They have the name, they have the power of the name, and I suspect they have access to the money, somewhere, somehow, funds and/or benefactors. I don't think they're not entitled to that, wither, hell, they've more than earned it. Just saying, OC Inc. wants to tangle with Unisonybmg, no, they can't go there. But OC Inc wants to fuck up Jordan McLean, they can. And honestly, they might have a need to to "set an example", because, also honestly, I get an impression of Ornette letting all kind of people into his world over the years, playing all kinds of things, saying all kinds of things, letting all kinds of recordings happen, and then not necessarily keeping tight reins on all of that. Big can of worms here for OC Inc, quite possibly.

But it's a good record. Hell, I think it's a great record. And the System Dialing people have their story, which has not yet been told in detail yet. I would hope, for all kinds of reason, that this is not where the example gets set. There are surely more deserving examples to be set.

Interesting, thanks for that.

[MomsMobley]

If it was to happen, it wouldn't be as likely to happen at the player level (although that does happen as well, but it usually is for more personal reasons), but more likely on a management/booking level. And in that regard, Holzman's above the fray at this point, and Ziv is seemingly ensconced in below-the-radar teaching and performance activities, So that leaves McLean, who has been involved in a series of activities, but whose high-profile gig has been Antibalas. So if- IF - it was deemed "necessary" for something to happen, Antibalas would start having "weird things happen" with bookings, and their management would find out it's because of one Jordan McLean being in the band. And then...

Shit like this does happen. Work is so sparse and competition so high...there's a reason why everybody says all the right things to all the right people all the time, the politics of the business are really tight right now. I don't know if anybody in Denardo's camp is looking to play that game, hopefully not (and their lawyer's walking back of the "teaching" thing was duly noted here), just that if they did want to, they could. They have the name, they have the power of the name, and I suspect they have access to the money, somewhere, somehow, funds and/or benefactors. I don't think they're not entitled to that, wither, hell, they've more than earned it. Just saying, OC Inc. wants to tangle with Unisonybmg, no, they can't go there. But OC Inc wants to fuck up Jordan McLean, they can. And honestly, they might have a need to to "set an example", because, also honestly, I get an impression of Ornette letting all kind of people into his world over the years, playing all kinds of things, saying all kinds of things, letting all kinds of recordings happen, and then not necessarily keeping tight reins on all of that. Big can of worms here for OC Inc, quite possibly.

But it's a good record. Hell, I think it's a great record. And the System Dialing people have their story, which has not yet been told in detail yet. I would hope, for all kinds of reason, that this is not where the example gets set. There are surely more deserving examples to be set.

While I share your fascination with this story, I see the biz side the other way: Ornette is NOT a commodity, both for health & asspain reasons. To be blunt, who gives a fuck what Denardo thinks? However faithfully (let's presume) he's carried forth Dad's perogatives, it's done little good for anyone else (but Art)), all the Harmolodic Verve stuff is out of print (new recordings + reissues) despite their presumed ownership etc etc.

If Antibalas can make me, as booking agent, festival and/or club owner $$$, let GuardianDenardo & his lawyers have a ball-- even with Ornette in best fettle, by his own choice he was setting himself apart etc & not really a player in the contemporary live music scene. Here's A's current date calendars by comparison--

http://www.antibalas.com/shows/

you think even 1% of their likely audience heard of or would care about this dispute if we could even explain it to them?

What power is O's name? How many gigs has he played in the last 10 years? 15? 20? Yeah, sure there are "loyalists" but what's "loyalty"-- and what should it be, really?-- to such a quixotic cause worth when we got tickets to sell? Ornette & Denardo in their loft/castle is admirable as shit, OK, but it's their life & sure is shit isn't a living for the rest of us.

And, obviously, assuming Antibalas not suicidal, O's discography is now littered with "questionable" or "questioned" releases.... well-- as I think you & others suggested earlier-- what's the common factor there?

Edited June 2, 2015 by MomsMobley

[JSngry]

If it was to happen, it wouldn't be as likely to happen at the player level (although that does happen as well, but it usually is for more personal reasons), but more likely on a management/booking level. And in that regard, Holzman's above the fray at this point, and Ziv is seemingly ensconced in below-the-radar teaching and performance activities, So that leaves McLean, who has been involved in a series of activities, but whose high-profile gig has been Antibalas. So if- IF - it was deemed "necessary" for something to happen, Antibalas would start having "weird things happen" with bookings, and their management would find out it's because of one Jordan McLean being in the band. And then...

Shit like this does happen. Work is so sparse and competition so high...there's a reason why everybody says all the right things to all the right people all the time, the politics of the business are really tight right now. I don't know if anybody in Denardo's camp is looking to play that game, hopefully not (and their lawyer's walking back of the "teaching" thing was duly noted here), just that if they did want to, they could. They have the name, they have the power of the name, and I suspect they have access to the money, somewhere, somehow, funds and/or benefactors. I don't think they're not entitled to that, wither, hell, they've more than earned it. Just saying, OC Inc. wants to tangle with Unisonybmg, no, they can't go there. But OC Inc wants to fuck up Jordan McLean, they can. And honestly, they might have a need to to "set an example", because, also honestly, I get an impression of Ornette letting all kind of people into his world over the years, playing all kinds of things, saying all kinds of things, letting all kinds of recordings happen, and then not necessarily keeping tight reins on all of that. Big can of worms here for OC Inc, quite possibly.

But it's a good record. Hell, I think it's a great record. And the System Dialing people have their story, which has not yet been told in detail yet. I would hope, for all kinds of reason, that this is not where the example gets set. There are surely more deserving examples to be set.

While I share your fascination with this story, I see the biz side the other way: Ornette is NOT a commodity, both for health & asspain reasons. To be blunt, who gives a fuck what Denardo thinks? However faithfully (let's presume) he's carried forth Dad's perogatives, it's done little good for anyone else (but Art)), all the Harmolodic Verve stuff is out of print (new recordings + reissues) despite their presumed ownership etc etc.

If Antibalas can make me, as booking agent, festival and/or club owner $$$, let GuardianDenardo & his lawyers have a ball-- even with Ornette in best fettle, by his own choice he was setting himself apart etc & not really a player in the contemporary live music scene. Here's A's current date calendars by comparison--

http://www.antibalas.com/shows/

you think even 1% of their likely audience heard of or would care about this dispute if we could even explain it to them?

What power is O's name? How many gigs has he played in the last 10 years? 15? 20? Yeah, sure there are "loyalists" but what's "loyalty"-- and what should it be, really?-- to such a quixotic cause worth when we got tickets to sell? Ornette & Denardo in their loft/castle is admirable as shit, OK, but it's their life & sure is shit isn't a living for the rest of us.

And, obviously, assuming Antibalas not suicidal, O's discography is now littered with "questionable" or "questioned" releases.... well-- as I think you & others suggested earlier-- what's the common factor there?

You probably have a saner grip on this, but one thing I've learned is to never underestimate the power of Anonymous Art Money when it gets pissed off. You look at all the Art Money (Anonymous & Otherwise) that has been invested in Ornette over the years, hey, Noble Cause Alert, write a check.

"Commodity", no. Icon, yes, and deservedly so. But people invest in Icons just as surely as they invest in Commodities.

And also, this is true, booking agents/etc. don't give a damn who' s in the band, they just want the name on the bill and on the stage. Antibalas can get a fucking trumpet player, ya' know?

And there we go back to the question- if System Dialing Peoples NOT suicidal, whose Anonymous Art Money did THEY get promised if/when shit hit fan?

So many angles to this, and none of them particularly savory, no matter how you come at them.

[jlhoots]

I've loved Ornette's music for 50+ years.

I believe that, unfortunately, he is no longer able to make "competent" decisions himself.

I've heard that for a number of years, not sure about 2009.

Edited June 2, 2015 by jlhoots

[MomsMobley]

If it was to happen, it wouldn't be as likely to happen at the player level (although that does happen as well, but it usually is for more personal reasons), but more likely on a management/booking level. And in that regard, Holzman's above the fray at this point, and Ziv is seemingly ensconced in below-the-radar teaching and performance activities, So that leaves McLean, who has been involved in a series of activities, but whose high-profile gig has been Antibalas. So if- IF - it was deemed "necessary" for something to happen, Antibalas would start having "weird things happen" with bookings, and their management would find out it's because of one Jordan McLean being in the band. And then...

Shit like this does happen. Work is so sparse and competition so high...there's a reason why everybody says all the right things to all the right people all the time, the politics of the business are really tight right now. I don't know if anybody in Denardo's camp is looking to play that game, hopefully not (and their lawyer's walking back of the "teaching" thing was duly noted here), just that if they did want to, they could. They have the name, they have the power of the name, and I suspect they have access to the money, somewhere, somehow, funds and/or benefactors. I don't think they're not entitled to that, wither, hell, they've more than earned it. Just saying, OC Inc. wants to tangle with Unisonybmg, no, they can't go there. But OC Inc wants to fuck up Jordan McLean, they can. And honestly, they might have a need to to "set an example", because, also honestly, I get an impression of Ornette letting all kind of people into his world over the years, playing all kinds of things, saying all kinds of things, letting all kinds of recordings happen, and then not necessarily keeping tight reins on all of that. Big can of worms here for OC Inc, quite possibly.

But it's a good record. Hell, I think it's a great record. And the System Dialing people have their story, which has not yet been told in detail yet. I would hope, for all kinds of reason, that this is not where the example gets set. There are surely more deserving examples to be set.

While I share your fascination with this story, I see the biz side the other way: Ornette is NOT a commodity, both for health & asspain reasons. To be blunt, who gives a fuck what Denardo thinks? However faithfully (let's presume) he's carried forth Dad's perogatives, it's done little good for anyone else (but Art)), all the Harmolodic Verve stuff is out of print (new recordings + reissues) despite their presumed ownership etc etc.

If Antibalas can make me, as booking agent, festival and/or club owner $$$, let GuardianDenardo & his lawyers have a ball-- even with Ornette in best fettle, by his own choice he was setting himself apart etc & not really a player in the contemporary live music scene. Here's A's current date calendars by comparison--

http://www.antibalas.com/shows/

you think even 1% of their likely audience heard of or would care about this dispute if we could even explain it to them?

What power is O's name? How many gigs has he played in the last 10 years? 15? 20? Yeah, sure there are "loyalists" but what's "loyalty"-- and what should it be, really?-- to such a quixotic cause worth when we got tickets to sell? Ornette & Denardo in their loft/castle is admirable as shit, OK, but it's their life & sure is shit isn't a living for the rest of us.

And, obviously, assuming Antibalas not suicidal, O's discography is now littered with "questionable" or "questioned" releases.... well-- as I think you & others suggested earlier-- what's the common factor there?

You probably have a saner grip on this, but one thing I've learned is to never underestimate the power of Anonymous Art Money when it gets pissed off. You look at all the Art Money (Anonymous & Otherwise) that has been invested in Ornette over the years, hey, Noble Cause Alert, write a check.

"Commodity", no. Icon, yes, and deservedly so. But people invest in Icons just as surely as they invest in Commodities.

And also, this is true, booking agents/etc. don't give a damn who' s in the band, they just want the name on the bill and on the stage. Antibalas can get a fucking trumpet player, ya' know?

And there we go back to the question- if System Dialing Peoples NOT suicidal, whose Anonymous Art Money did THEY get promised if/when shit hit fan?

So many angles to this, and none of them particularly savory, no matter how you come at them.

There are definitely layers & layers of questions and clearly something was kinda-- if not 'shady'-- then purposefully 'shadowy' about this release.

But just on functional level of, yes, people trying to compete, if Antibalas can handle their business, are pleasant to deal with etc... I just don't see anyone but Ornette's very very best personal friends taking sides and I'd suggest the same even if was 10 years & the prospect of 'future' Ornette more realistic.

(Ten years ago CDs had greater value, natch; now, with almost everything available somewhere... Except for the obviously higher manufacturing costs, I'm surprised the label didn't do this on vinyl... And actually, in some ways that's weirdest thing about this is the sequal/"homage" to O re: "New Vocabulary" though maybe they see it in line with the provocative Contemporary & Atlantic titles?)

Also, I'm not generally an NPR fan-- brought to you by swill beer whose sponsorship I won't repeat here-- but I didn't see their original Kevin Whitehead review posted so...

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/20/387772281/ornette-coleman-returns-with-his-unmistakable-sound

Edited June 2, 2015 by MomsMobley

[clifford_thornton]

And there we go back to the question- if System Dialing Peoples NOT suicidal, whose Anonymous Art Money did THEY get promised if/when shit hit fan?

Peter Sarsgaard and Maggie Gyllenhaal, I presume.

[JSngry]

And there we go back to the question- if System Dialing Peoples NOT suicidal, whose Anonymous Art Money did THEY get promised if/when shit hit fan?

Peter Sarsgaard and Maggie Gyllenhaal, I presume.

"liberal activist actorfans" gonna throw down for Yet Another Exploitation Of A Great African-American Artist By A Cunning White Man?

If that was what I staked my ass on...I...might not count on that.

Somebody asked earlier about the thanks to Jac Holzman...that's Adam Holzman's dad, and Adam Holzman remains the "wild card" in all of this, in my Make Believe Investigative Journalist eyes.

[B. Clugston]

Except for the obviously higher manufacturing costs, I'm surprised the label didn't do this on vinyl...

It actually was released on vinyl as well.

[clifford_thornton]

Except for the obviously higher manufacturing costs, I'm surprised the label didn't do this on vinyl...

It actually was released on vinyl as well.

Manufactured by Doxy.

[ombudsman]

But just on functional level of, yes, people trying to compete, if Antibalas can handle their business, are pleasant to deal with etc... I just don't see anyone but Ornette's very very best personal friends taking sides and I'd suggest the same even if was 10 years & the prospect of 'future' Ornette more realistic.

Totally disagree... I've seen Antibalas and bought their records in the past... as long as Jordan is in the band, they are dead to me now, and I bring this up anytime their name comes up in conversation. I'm not saying I personally will impact this so that anyone would notice, but on the other hand I know I'm not the only person pissed about this. And I would be a person that would do a review of Antibalas for a print magazine with a half decent circulation if one of their albums came around, were it not for this. Which is not to say that someone else won't... but they might not.

It's very popular to bash record labels or generic "big corporations" as a means of justifying illegal downloading... things like this are sad and they provide a different narrative... musicians and fans are just as happy to screw over musicians to make a buck (or avoid paying a buck, same diff) as the opportunity presents.

Have to say it really irks me for people to be claiming that Denardo was driving the legal action or bashing Ornette for knowing his music has real value. Ornette has a long history of believing very strongly in his work, and asking very high prices for it, getting ridiculed for it, and then doing more great work, and actually getting his price, or something pretty close to it. It's been that way since the early days.

I've recently heard that there are falsified writing credits on some Antibalas releases too.

Don't think that the narrative of a mostly white group exploiting black musicians doesn't have the power to do real harm to a band that is fairly well known for an imported style like Afrobeat, particularly with the political dimension that it has and the economic, values, and racial identity issues that are standard content of lyrics in the style. I'm a white guy that used to play in a (much, much, so much lesser quality) largely white Afrobeat band myself, which like Antibalas had a Nigerian singer. I can tell you from awkward experience that issues of authenticity and authorship do come up. I would not be surprised if some other band did a song about Antibalas as colonialist hucksters.

[LouisvillePrez]

Using the dates on this thread, it seems that this recording was released, officially, in late-ish December 2014.  Maybe this disqualifies it from year-end/"best of" lists for 2015, but I wonder if New Vocabulary has appeared on anyone's recent "best of" lists?  The album is highly enjoyable, and Ornette is in the smallest group of jazz's greatest artists.  What impact does the legal wrangling have on this CD's recognition as an album of "2015"? What impact do the legal issues have on its place in the career of Ornette Coleman and the history of jazz?

 

[ornette]

A November 23 press release on the System Dialling website states that there is a move to dismiss the claim, on the basis that there is a written contract covering the recording.

 

http://systemdialingrecords.com/headlines-rumors/

[JSngry]

12-12-2017: Case dismissed with prejudice on procedural grounds. If I read correctly, Denardo filed the suit as Ornette's guardian. Then Ornette died, and Denardo needed to ammend the filing to reflect that he was executor of the estate, For whatever reason, that never happened, and after several failed attempts by the court to get him toi get that in place, the defendants requested dismissal for failure to prosecute. The judge concurred,

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2015cv03868/442348/76/

[mjzee]

So, with time, has it held up - is it good music?

[JSngry]

I still like it, and the label is still offering it for sale. I don't know, objectively, what "good music" is other than are people saying what they want to say the way they want to say it. That certainly seems to be the case here.  After that, you have to decide for yourself.

Now, is it good lawyering? On Denardo's side, sure doesn't seem to be. Or else the suit was not all that serious to begin with.

 

[bertrand]

Wait, so I can still buy this?