Ornette Coleman, New Vocabulary

[JSngry]

If it is a bullshit move, then it is a bullshit move of epic kill your career and forever be known as The Guys Who Fucked Ornette proportion.

That is either totally insane (literally) or else they've gotten some kind of "hey, just do it, you'll be ok" reinforcement at some level they must have taken pretty damn seriously, either out of ballsy naivite or ballsy certainty that the promise would hold up.

Gotta be more to the story, and no matter what it is, it's probably unsettling as hell.

Still and all, great record. Looking like one of the all-time great moral/business "miscalculations", but great record anyway. Probably better than this upcoming legit tribute album with Patti Smith is gonna be, even with Sonny Rollins (disclaimer - Patti Smith has always meant nothing to me. Like Elvis, I know she's a hero to some, but she never meant shit to me).

Has Adam Holzman filed a lawsuit yet?

Off topic I guess, but what's wrong with Patti Smith?

Just curious.

Nothing "wrong" with her, I've just had an instinctual revulsion towards her music ever since her first record. I'm sure she's a nice lady, and I know she's meant a lot to a lot of people. I'm just not one of them, never have been, and not really looking to ever be one. My god, Horses droning on for hours on end out of cluelessly stoned peoples' apartments/houses/whatevers...wasted people, wasted noise, the whiny sound of self-loathing too lazy to do anything about itself except play loud and drone on. Just...was not interested in any part of it except avoiding it altogether.

[mjzee]

I'm in agreement with Jim re Patti Smith. I don't think she has much talent regarding song melodies, I don't like her voice, and her lyric content doesn't interest me. I have one unfortunate memory seared into my mind. Around the time "Horses" came out, a friend dragged me to the Bitter End to see her and her band. The Bitter End was a long, narrow room. The stage was set up at the midpoint of one of the long walls, so there were some tables in front of the stage, but many more to either side. We were at one of those side tables. Smith was wearing a tank top, and every time she raised her arms while singing, I saw her big thatch of underarm hair. This happened many times during the performance. Still chills me.

[JSngry]

The pits never bothered me, I mean, I got that part of it. It was the music and the whole "scene" around it. Felt like Emptiness In Search Of Its Loudest Self to me.

[jlhoots]

The pits never bothered me, I mean, I got that part of it. It was the music and the whole "scene" around it. Felt like Emptiness In Search Of Its Loudest Self to me.

Her book, Just Kids, is very good IMO & won several awards.

New book, M Train, coming in the fall.

I believe you guys are underestimating her.

Now if you said the same re: Taylor Swift I'd be in complete agreement.

[mjazzg]

I'm with Jlhoots. As a Patti Smith fan (and I have no problem with underarm hair ) and an Ornette fan and would like to hear a collaboration.....as long as it was legit

(I wasn't aware she had a new book, that's good news)

[AllenLowe]

Patti Smith always sounded to me like someone attending Rock and Roll Camp. Silly poses, amateur singer.

[clifford_thornton]

Maybe you had to be there but I really dig Patti Smith and really, really dig Tom Verlaine.

IDK about Friends & Neighbors' legitimacy, but I get the feeling there developed some bad blood between Bob Thiele and Ornette.

Stollman told me - and take this with however much salt you need - that Ornette took one of the Town Hall tapes to Stollman because he could have Alderson correct some distortion. He said that Ornette owed him money for "past legal advice" and that releasing the record was part of the compensation. Weird move but I am glad to be able to hear this record. The performance is one of my favorites.

From a recollection of meeting with Bud and Ornette at Nica's in the '60s:

I found Ornette, and he said to me "why aren't you helping me?!?" I said "Ornette! Don't you remember I made all these calls, all these visits, set up things with record companies for you—and what did you do, you ran around behind me and didn't pay any attention to the work I was doing. Not only that, I did the tape for you and you took it away. I will help you, but we have to have a formal agreement." I sat down at a typewriter and typed an agreement that gave me the right to do with the tapes as I saw fit. What I hadn't realized was that when I gave him the tapes, I still had the two-track mix (he had all the originals), because what I thought was important was the corrected tapes. So he signed the agreement and at that point I guess the idea of a record company was forming in my mind.

[AmirBagachelles]

Stollman: "I made all these calls, all these visits, set up things with record companies for you".... A few hours of "work", one might guess. A few hundred bucks worth? Loss leader for the privilege of a business relationship with a genius?

[John L]

Given that Ornette Coleman is not always the easiest person to understand in a spoken dialog, there could very well just be a misunderstanding here. In the end, it will come down to whether a clear written contractual agreement was signed. I rather doubt it.

[clifford_thornton]

Stollman: "I made all these calls, all these visits, set up things with record companies for you".... A few hours of "work", one might guess. A few hundred bucks worth? Loss leader for the privilege of a business relationship with a genius?

yeah, not condoning, just transcribing.

[medjuck]

Patti Smith always sounded to me like someone attending Rock and Roll Camp. Silly poses, amateur singer.

I saw Patti Smith with Philip Glass doing an homage to Alan Ginsberg and quite liked her. Then I saw a boring documentary about her that featured some scenes with her and her band. They rocked. Made me wish I could see her with the band and my wish came true and they were great.

[LouisvillePrez]

I wonder how many jazz publications reviewed New Vocabulary when it first came out? I know that I read a review in the New York City Jazz Record (March 2015). Did Jazz Times? Downbeat?

[JSngry]

This music needed to be made. Whether or not this record did, or even, if it did, if this record needed to be made like this, hmmmm.

But I've listened again to the record, and the music needed to be made, I think. If you ask me why, I'll give you some gobbledygook about expanding on the whole Tone Dialing thing, and getting techno-types to consider all the possibilities for going forth, which they/it definitely will be doing one way or the other, and then you can ask, ok, why does that need to happen, and then all I can say is, well, ok, maybe not, but - yes, anyway.

So.

[jlhoots]

I wonder how many jazz publications reviewed New Vocabulary when it first came out? I know that I read a review in the New York City Jazz Record (March 2015). Did Jazz Times? Downbeat?

Downbeat reviewed it.

Gave it 3 stars as I recall.

[ornette]

I wonder how many jazz publications reviewed New Vocabulary when it first came out? I know that I read a review in the New York City Jazz Record (March 2015). Did Jazz Times? Downbeat?

50 years of reading jazz magazines (in the UK) has taught me that they don't review anything unless they get sent sent a copy.

[AllenLowe]

I disagree about Stollman's description of his work for Ornette; he talks about meetings, visits, calls, arrangements made.

unless you've done some work in this field, you may not understand that that indicates a lot of work that he's done. And that it takes a lot of attempts and calls and leg work to do these things and that musicians are self-destructive anyway and will regularly take advantage of someone else's effort and refuse to pay what amount to very small commissions.

I speak from experience.

[JohnS]

I wonder how many jazz publications reviewed New Vocabulary when it first came out? I know that I read a review in the New York City Jazz Record (March 2015). Did Jazz Times? Downbeat?

50 years of reading jazz magazines (in the UK) has taught me that they don't review anything unless they get sent sent a copy.

It gets a luke warm review from Brian Morton in the May 2015 issue of Jazz Journal

[Hoppy T. Frog]

I thought I threw up a warning sign earlier, but I guess I wasn't specific enough.

Your comments were cryptic to say the least. Who's Dookie? Denardo?

For the record, I placed an order with DMG for the CD but never got it, so I guess I'm on the moral high ground by default. Never like Antibalas anyway, thought it was borderline-minstrelsy for (mostly) honkies to play Fela-inspired Afrobeat, not matter their "right-on" politics.

[Stefan Wood]

I thought I threw up a warning sign earlier, but I guess I wasn't specific enough.

Your comments were cryptic to say the least. Who's Dookie? Denardo?

For the record, I placed an order with DMG for the CD but never got it, so I guess I'm on the moral high ground by default. Never like Antibalas anyway, thought it was borderline-minstrelsy for (mostly) honkies to play Fela-inspired Afrobeat, not matter their "right-on" politics.

It is, but they are fun to listen to. Liked the fusion of latin and afrobeat.

[clifford_thornton]

Hoppy T. Frog gets a from me.

[JSngry]

Still for sale: http://systemdialingrecords.com/

And they are sticking to their story: http://systemdialingrecords.com/headlines-rumors/hey-world-for-the-record/

Now let's see who can afford the best lawyers.

[jcam_44]

I doubt this will amount to the type of fight I'd like to see, and I feel bad for whichever party is in the right, and thus has to prove it... but I find this entertaining.

[JSngry]

Reading between the lines here:

You may have heard of a suit filed against us in connection with New Vocabulary. Just to be clear, New Vocabulary is a collaborative, joint work by professional musicians Jordan Mclean, Amir Ziv, and Ornette Coleman, made with the willing involvement of each artist. The album is the end result of multiple deliberate and dedicated recording sessions done with the willing participation and consent of Mr. Coleman and the other performers. Any suggestion to the contrary is unfounded and we deny any allegations of wrongdoing!

it sounds like all the recording done was legit, and that perhaps even the release of something was discussed and agreed to in principal. I'm reading that everybody's "involvement" was "willing" and that the "recording sessions" were "deliberate and dedicated" and that Ornette's participation in those sessions was "willing" and that these same sessions were done with his "consent".

This talk is all about the sessions themselves, though, and it sure sounds like nobody signed anything sanctioning release. However, there were definitely verbal declarations recorded, as evidenced on the CD, so maybe snippets or extended exchanges can be offered up for the defense. But whether or not that matters depends on lawyers and judges. Oh the humanity!

Shoe on other foot/devil's advocate, though - let's say that these sessions transpired as stated, finished product given to Ornette as a gift/thank you/whatever, even acquiescence in the face of some legal/other muscle being applied, and are never released by System Dialing due to whatever conspirance of circumstance, and at some point, either prior due or after the fact of Ornette's cessation of existence on the earthly plane, somebody in Ornette's camp decides hey, this is pretty interesting music, let's put it out, and it comes out as an Ornette Coleman album. Who's gonna be suing who then, and for what, exactly? Ornette's people be saying, hey, you gave it to us, System Dialing be saying yeah, but not like THAT, and then, does anybody ever root against Ornette? I know I don't. But from everything I can tell, that doesn't mean that his business stories are always the unfettered objective business truths either.

I still want to know, has anybody asked - or tried to ask - Adam Holzman about all this?

[clifford_thornton]

Perhaps Ornette hasn't been paid.

[JSngry]

Perhaps Ornette hasn't been paid.

Perhaps?

I don't think that's the question, probably more like how much and what kind of FreedomArtLoveEvilMoney philosophy was he sharing during the recordings, and how seriously did he end up being taken?

Which, sorry, I don't buy that as an "excuse", not for one second. But it sure as hell could leave an opening...which is where denial of "wrongdoing" gets slippery. If he said enough things about music/gift/belongstoeverybody/etc., well hey, in today's world, a good lawyer in front of the right peoples could go all emolegal and work that, I think. A lot of young people, including artists, really believe that's how it should/be, so, you know, The Prophet gave us his blessings, etc. And a lot of old people, including artists, talk that shit under any and all conditions, which is not always prudent.

OTOH, same lawyer doing his job for the other side and go all emolegal about Exploitation Of Elderly Black Genius By Ambitious Unscrupulous White Ambitious People, HOW IS THIS STILL HAPPENING? IT NEEDS TO STOP NOW!!!! and be every bit as effective.

I'd say whoever wants to win this the most, get them Motown lawyers and pay them what they ask.

Of course, unless/until this gets into the mainstream press, nobody will give a shit. But if THAT happens, if one day there's a blurb about this case in Entertainment Weekly/Tonight/Forever/Whatever, then we'll know that it's really game on!