Mosaic plans Beehive box

[sidewinder]

8 hours ago, mjzee said:

Mathews is an excellent pianist, very underrated IMHO.

I always thought that, from 'Rumproller' onwards. Fortunately was able to catch him in live performance with TS Monk's group, where as per usual he absolutely smoked and was very supportive to the front line.

Have never heard his Beehive LPs so will have to check out this set !

[HutchFan]

On 3/16/2016 at 6:03 PM, mjzee said:

The two Ronnie Mathews dates are strong.  Could've come out on Blue Note in the '60's.  Listening now to "Legacy."  Look at the band: Bill Hardman, Ricky Ford, Mathews, Walter Booker, Jimmy Cobb.  Mathews is an excellent pianist, very underrated IMHO.

Absolutely! Ronnie Mathews is WAY under-appreciated.  Legacy is very good. And I think Roots, Branches and Dances is even better.  The latter is my favorite Beehive LP -- among those that I own or have heard; I don't have the box (yet).

[medjuck]

On 10/21/2015 at 11:53 AM, Kevin Bresnahan said:

 

 Interesting to think that the second bari solo is Nick. I can hear it I suppose. I'm at work, do the liner notes mention the solo order for this song?

 

No, and why don't they?  Obviously I'm not the only one who wasn't sure.  If it weren't for this discussion  I'd still be wondering 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I was spinning some of this box today and it got me thinking again about the review Iverson did on his Do The Math blog. So I went to check to see if he revised it a second time and discovered that it got revised out of existence.

Now this thread makes us look like doofusses as we debate over a dead link.

[Rooster_Ties]

Just pulled the trigger on this set, and looking forward!!

[Scott Dolan]

Jealous! I love the sample tunes they have on the site. I'm hoping to order it next month. 

[Rooster_Ties]

I posted this in the "Hey kids, Mosaic's in trouble!" thread, but also wanted to mention it here...

I've really been enjoying the Bee Hive box I got on Wednesday. Have spun about 60% of it (discs 3-4, & 6-10), and everything so far has been a very solid 7/10, with a couple albums closer to 8/10.

A very consistent set, with a number of real winners. Anyone interested but on the fence, I'd suggest going for it.

[Tom 1960]

5 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I posted this in the "Hey kids, Mosaic's in trouble!" thread, but also wanted to mention it here...

I've really been enjoying the Bee Hive box I got on Wednesday. Have spun about 60% of it (discs 3-4, & 6-10), and everything so far has been a very solid 7/10, with a couple albums closer to 8/10.

A very consistent set, with a number of real winners. Anyone interested but on the fence, I'd suggest going for it.

You might have just pushed me off the fence. I have the Shaw/Muse set on order and will probably pull the trigger on that once the Shaw set arrives hopefully next week.

[John Tapscott]

2 hours ago, Tom 1960 said:

You might have just pushed me off the fence. I have the Shaw/Muse set on order and will probably pull the trigger on that once the Shaw set arrives hopefully next week.

I'll give you another push, Tom, just to make sure you don't get back on the fence. I had many (but all) of the Beehive LP's which I sold last year in anticipation of getting the Mosaic. I ordered it on May 5th but haven't even got a shipping notice yet though it seems not everyone is getting one.  The point is that knowing your tastes, I can say with a high degree of certainty that you will really like the Beehive set. I'm eagerly anticipating it myself. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by John Tapscott

[J.A.W.]

On ‎20‎-‎10‎-‎2015 at 1:02 AM, Larry Kart said:

Interesting take on the Mosaic Beehive box from Ethan Iverson:

 

http://dothemath.typepad.com

 

As it happens, and going on memory, I share his reservations about all the Beehive dates Iverson has reservations about (that would be most of them), but the tone of his comments strikes me at times as off-puttingly snotty, and he displays significant gaps of knowledge/experience or just plain taste.

 

For instance: ‘[Von] Freeman’s ballad feature “I’m Glad There is You,” is intriguing, there’s definitely something personal and avant-garde about his tone and phrasing, but I’m still left with the impression that I never quite hear the best Von Freeman. Perhaps he needed to be experienced live.’ 

 

Ethan, do your homework. Yes, Von live was exceptional, but exceptional Freeman on disc is not hard to find. Or perhaps Iverson is one of those benighted souls who just doesn’t get Von. Hey, Ira Gitler always dismissed Von because he thought he was out of tune and didn't know it and/or care. (Von's intonation was as much or more a part of his style as Jackie McLean's was a part of his.]

 

'Eddie Bert sounds burly and vital. All I really knew about him previously was that he played with everybody's big band, so it's nice to learn something about what a good soloist he was.‘

 

Again, do your homework. Bert's recorded legacy as a sideman and a leader is extensive and makes it clear that not only was he a good soloist but also a highly individual one -- a more or less saxophone-like trombonist, like Earl Swope, Jimmy Knepper, and Willie Dennis. Bert preceded them, with Pres being the saxophonist in question, though Bert's initial inspiration was Trummy Young.

 

[Arnett] Cobb, Joe Newman and Al Grey all play really well [on Beehive’s Cobb album] despite the strangely unswinging drumming [of Panama Francis]. (Looking at his bio, I’m unsurprised to learn that Francis's work in rock seems more celebrated than his work in jazz.)’ 

 

Check out Francis on those revived Savoy Sultans albums; he swings like crazy.

 

‘The nice surprise is tenor saxophonist Sal Nistico, who leads his own date with Ronnie Mathews, Sam Jones, and Roy Haynes and all but takes over Curtis Fuller’s session with Walter Bishop, Sam Jones, and Freddie Waits. There were are lot of great white tenor players who showed serious homemade mastery of the idiom in the wake of Coltrane: A partial list would include Joe Farrell, Dave Liebman, Michael Brecker, Steve Grossman, Gregory Herbert, Bob Berg…it would be a valid educational project to listen and compare them all. (Actually I know there are those that spend their lives doing this already.)

 

‘At any rate I’d barely heard of Nistico, but he’s right in there…’

 

You’d barely heard of Nistico? And what’s with that “great white tenor players who showed serious homemade mastery of the idiom in the wake of Coltrane”? “[H]omemade”? As opposed to what? 

 

Also, the late Gregory Herbert was not a "white tenor player." He was African-American. Finally, though Nistico was certainly was aware of Coltrane -- how could he not be? -- his playing was not significantly “in the wake of Coltrane.”

Came late to this old thread and haven't read all of it, and now that the link above is dead it would be interesting to hear - in a nutshell - what exactly your reservations about the Bee Hive dates are.

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, J.A.W. said:

Came late to this old thread and haven't read all of it, and now that the link above is dead it would be interesting to hear - in a nutshell - what exactly your reservations about the Bee Hive dates are.

I can't recall my specific reservations right now without listening to the various albums (I don't have the Beehive box), but I do recall, during some talk about it here, Chuck Nessa saying something along the lines that he'd give a lot to be able to remix those recordings. Further, while none of those dates would have been made without  the  instigating presence of Jim Neumann, who was Beehive, I would have given a lot to have Chuck rather than Jim select the personnel and be the in-studio producer. I would say that there's a kind of looseness that's basically welcome because it's inseparable or close to inseparable from an atmosphere of genuineness, and there's a looseness that just loose -- as though the producer either didn't want to or thought he ought not to intervene here and there in the course of the date in order to tighten things up. I should add that Chuck and Jim were friends, so there was nothing pissy about what Chuck said. 

[felser]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

I can't recall my specific reservations right now without listening to the various albums (I don't have the Beehive box), but I do recall, during some talk about it here, Chuck Nessa saying something along the lines that he'd give a lot to be able to remix those recordings. Further, while none of those dates would have been made without  the  instigating presence of Jim Neumann, who was Beehive, I would have given a lot to have Chuck rather than Jim select the personnel and be the in-studio producer. I would say that there's a kind of looseness that's basically welcome because it's inseparable or close to inseparable from an atmosphere of genuineness, and there's a looseness that just loose -- as though the producer either didn't want to or thought he ought not to intervene here and there in the course of the date in order to tighten things up. I should add that Chuck and Jim were friends, so there was nothing pissy about what Chuck said. 

I've always felt that those recordings tended to be less than the sum of their parts (impressive personnel), and you have now explained well to me what it is I sensed but could not identify or articulate.  Thanks.

[J.A.W.]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

I can't recall my specific reservations right now without listening to the various albums (I don't have the Beehive box), but I do recall, during some talk about it here, Chuck Nessa saying something along the lines that he'd give a lot to be able to remix those recordings. Further, while none of those dates would have been made without  the  instigating presence of Jim Neumann, who was Beehive, I would have given a lot to have Chuck rather than Jim select the personnel and be the in-studio producer. I would say that there's a kind of looseness that's basically welcome because it's inseparable or close to inseparable from an atmosphere of genuineness, and there's a looseness that just loose -- as though the producer either didn't want to or thought he ought not to intervene here and there in the course of the date in order to tighten things up. I should add that Chuck and Jim were friends, so there was nothing pissy about what Chuck said. 

Thanks. I wasn't familiar with any of the dates (due to personal circumstances I wasn't listening to jazz at the time), but I see what you mean, having listened to the audio samples on the Mosaic site several times; I kept wondering why they never really convinced me, though quite a few people whose opinions I respect were and are pretty positive.

Edited July 17, 2017 by J.A.W.

[Scott Dolan]

I actually thought the clips were very convincing. They pretty much sold me on the set. 

It's definitely the next Mosaic on my list. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[J.A.W.]

Of the five audio samples on the Mosaic site the Curtis Fuller was the only one I did more or less like; the Ronnie Mathews seemed OK, but I found the Nick Brignola and Sal Salvador absolutely horrid. The Junior Mance didn't do anything for me. I know the Johnny Hartman date (not among the samples) is revered, but I'm not into his kind of vocals. Arnett Cobb (met him in the 1970s, a nice man) is not one of my favourites. The other stuff seems a mixed bag to me.

[Brad]

I listened to the set intermittently over the last couple of months and by the time I reached the end, the set had begun to wear on me, particularly disc 11 and 12 (Katz, Mance and Cobb).  This is a broad generalization but a lot of sameness.  

[J.A.W.]

Am now listening to David Brent Johnson's Night Lights Bee Hive episode. The music still doesn't convince me.

1 hour ago, Brad said:

I listened to the set intermittently over the last couple of months and by the time I reached the end, the set had begun to wear on me, particularly disc 11 and 12 (Katz, Mance and Cobb).  This is a broad generalization but a lot of sameness.  

Judging by what I've heard so far I can imagine that it can be fatiguing in large doses.

Edited July 17, 2017 by J.A.W.

[Scott Dolan]

Hmmmm...

That all sounds a bit discouraging. Perhaps I need to investigate a bit further before purchasing. 

Oh, and I'm glad you mention Hartman, Hans. I'm not a huge fan, either. Glad I'm not the only one. Can't even get into his date with Trane. 

[John Tapscott]

1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said:

Hmmmm...

That all sounds a bit discouraging. Perhaps I need to investigate a bit further before purchasing. 

Oh, and I'm glad you mention Hartman, Hans. I'm not a huge fan, either. Glad I'm not the only one. Can't even get into his date with Trane. 

Well, count me among the fans of this set. I don't find the music fatiguing at all; lots of variety, in my opinion. Now sure, if you set out to listen to discs 1-12 all in a row, it's a bit of a marathon, but breaking it up a bit helps. (That's true for all the big Mosaic sets, though).  Yes, there's a couple of unusual personnel decisions and not every session is a masterpiece, but overall, I find the music very stimulating.   

Edited July 18, 2017 by John Tapscott

[J.A.W.]

I might change my mind and get the Bee Hive after all (it does seem to have some interesting stuff, although some other stuff didn't do it for me, on the contrary), but another Mosaic, the James P. Johnson, and two classical sets, the upcoming big Rudolf Serkin box and the reissue of Stephen Kovacevich's Beethoven Piano Sonatas set, are my priorities now.

Edited July 18, 2017 by J.A.W.

[BFrank]

I've had the Hartman album since it came out and it's one of his strongest dates, IMO.

[sidewinder]

Just been having another listen to the Beehive Box. Nothing earth-shattering in this set but on the whole it is a fascinating collection, really good overview of the state of US modern-mainstream circa 1980. Jordan's 'Hyde Park After Dark' currently on - some nice Von Freeman on that one and some rare late period Cy Touff.

[gmonahan]

Well, I *am* a Hartman fan, and I don't think anybody ever sang "I See Your Face Before Me" better than he did on the Bee Hive date. I have just about everything he ever recorded (it's not too hard!), and I think this is his best--even better than the album with Trane. I'm with John in liking me some late Touff too. All that said, a lot of the sessions on the Bee Hive box are the kind that would get "three stars" from Down Beat reviewers, in the sense that they're listenable and often fun, but not necessarily essential. But how many sessions we enjoy fit that high standard?

 

 

gregmo

[paul secor]

I'm a Johnny Hartman fan too, and I like the Beehive album. I had a number of Beehive LPs and I think that this is the only one I've held onto.

[J.A.W.]

Listened to some more Bee Hive stuff and I don't think I'm going to get the set anytime soon.

Edited July 18, 2017 by J.A.W.