Mingus, "Revenge": Worth Picking Up?

[Bol]

I recently saw copies of this at a local record store. I have "Cornell 1964", "Great Concert", and plan to pick up the Mosaic set one of these days. Would people say that "Revenge" is sufficiently good and/or different to make it still worth picking up?

[kinuta]

I can only speak for myself but there's no such thing as too much Mingus, each take of each familiar title is different

to other takes. My suggestion is get it for sure. I seldom post in the music forums but Revenge deserves a comment.

[jazzbo]

I agree, "Revenge" is well worth picking up.

[king ubu]

I'd say get anything from that 1964 tour that you can lay hands on - including the Mosaic set w/extended Town Hall concert and also BN's Cornell release!

That band was on fire and there's nothing quite like it!

[Stefan Wood]

Yes, it is worth buying.

[jazzbo]

And it's a legitimate release, the first of the authorized ones by his widow, Sue Mingus.

[Hot Ptah]

I agree, worth picking up.

[miles65]

Yes it's worth it.

[colinmce]

Everyone is right. Impossible to have too much of this band.

[jlhoots]

I can't keep all of this straight.

Maybe I should try harder.

[Bol]

Thanks, everyone. Your advice will be heeded one of these days.

[clifford_thornton]

I have the Paris concert on an America 3LP set, but if I recall correctly there's a track on Revenge that is not on the Great Paris Concert.

[JSngry]

I have the Paris concert on an America 3LP set, but if I recall correctly there's a track on Revenge that is not on the Great Paris Concert.

I just assumed that those were the same concert, but they're not. Different nights.

[medjuck]

BTW "Revenge" is avaialbe for download from Amazon for $5.94.

[kh1958]

The Revenge release is the April 17 concert; The "Great Concert..." is the April 19 concert, except it includes Goodbye Eric from April 17. European tour discography here: http://mingus.onttonen.info/1964.html April 17

Salle Wagram, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 3:20 f So Long Eric* 28:23/28:51 b,d,e Meditations 22:30 a,c,e Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 11:35 a,e Fables Of Faubus 24:53 a,c,e Parkeriana 24:04/24:12 b,d,e Peggy's Blue Skylight 12:50 a,c,e Notes:

1. 'Fables Of Faubus' is edited from the full length of 35:00 (according to Lindenmaier/Salewski)
2. The timings for 'So Long Eric' and 'Parkeriana' come from d (they're wrong in liner notes)
3. *) During this performance of 'So Long Eric', Johnny Coles collapsed due to a perforated gastric ulcer; he was hospitalized at the American Clinic at Neuilly, France, for the remainder of the Charles Mingus European Tour 1964,

   Musidisc 500072 MU 763 and America AM 003-004-005 (3LP) contain an edited version of 'So Long Eric' (see April 19 for more information),

   'So Long Eric' is mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' on d and e

a) Le Jazz CD 19
b) Le Jazz CD 38
c) France's Concert FCD 102
d) France's Concert FCD 110
e) Revenge 32002
f) France's Concert FC 102 (LP)

April 19
Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 5:52/6:12 a,b Fables Of Faubus 27:30/27:47 a,b Parkeriana 23:25/23:35 a,b Meditations 21:47/23:04 a,b* Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 14:05/16:00 a So Long Eric (edited) 5:40 b I Can't Get Started unissued Notes:

1. The concert started 0.10 a.m. and ended 2.45 a.m. (according to Musidisc liner notes) - therefore this is under April 19, not April 18
2. *) 'Meditations' lasts 27:30 on America 3LP-set
3. 'So Long Eric' (23:21/27:10) on Musidisc (mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat'), which features Coles, is actually an edited version from Salle Wagram and it fades in the end of Dolphy's alto sax solo before Richmond's drum solo.
4. 'Sophisticated Lady' is a duet featuring Byard and Mingus
5. Johnny Coles did not play in this concert, although some of the liner notes claim otherwise

Edited September 19, 2014 by kh1958

[JETman]

The Revenge release is the April 17 concert; The "Great Concert..." is the April 19 concert, except it includes Goodbye Eric from April 17. European tour discography here: http://mingus.onttonen.info/1964.html April 17

Salle Wagram, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 3:20 f So Long Eric* 28:23/28:51 b,d,e Meditations 22:30 a,c,e Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 11:35 a,e Fables Of Faubus 24:53 a,c,e Parkeriana 24:04/24:12 b,d,e Peggy's Blue Skylight 12:50 a,c,e Notes:

1. 'Fables Of Faubus' is edited from the full length of 35:00 (according to Lindenmaier/Salewski)
2. The timings for 'So Long Eric' and 'Parkeriana' come from d (they're wrong in liner notes)
3. *) During this performance of 'So Long Eric', Johnny Coles collapsed due to a perforated gastric ulcer; he was hospitalized at the American Clinic at Neuilly, France, for the remainder of the Charles Mingus European Tour 1964,

   Musidisc 500072 MU 763 and America AM 003-004-005 (3LP) contain an edited version of 'So Long Eric' (see April 19 for more information),

   'So Long Eric' is mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' on d and e

a) Le Jazz CD 19

b) Le Jazz CD 38

c) France's Concert FCD 102

d) France's Concert FCD 110

e) Revenge 32002

f) France's Concert FC 102 (LP)

April 19

Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 5:52/6:12 a,b Fables Of Faubus 27:30/27:47 a,b Parkeriana 23:25/23:35 a,b Meditations 21:47/23:04 a,b* Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 14:05/16:00 a So Long Eric (edited) 5:40 b I Can't Get Started unissued Notes:

1. The concert started 0.10 a.m. and ended 2.45 a.m. (according to Musidisc liner notes) - therefore this is under April 19, not April 18
2. *) 'Meditations' lasts 27:30 on America 3LP-set
3. 'So Long Eric' (23:21/27:10) on Musidisc (mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat'), which features Coles, is actually an edited version from Salle Wagram and it fades in the end of Dolphy's alto sax solo before Richmond's drum solo.
4. 'Sophisticated Lady' is a duet featuring Byard and Mingus
5. Johnny Coles did not play in this concert, although some of the liner notes claim otherwise

That discog is slightly botched. "Orange Was the Color of Her Dress" is definitely on c.

Bottom line: if you have the 2 late 80s Esoldun/INA releases -- c and d in that discography -- you do not need e. All 3 of c, d and e do incorrectly state the date as 4/18/64.

Edited September 19, 2014 by JETman

[clifford_thornton]

I have the Paris concert on an America 3LP set, but if I recall correctly there's a track on Revenge that is not on the Great Paris Concert.

I just assumed that those were the same concert, but they're not. Different nights.

Aha! Thanks.

[king ubu]

The Revenge release is the April 17 concert; The "Great Concert..." is the April 19 concert, except it includes Goodbye Eric from April 17. European tour discography here: http://mingus.onttonen.info/1964.html April 17

Salle Wagram, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 3:20 f So Long Eric* 28:23/28:51 b,d,e Meditations 22:30 a,c,e Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 11:35 a,e Fables Of Faubus 24:53 a,c,e Parkeriana 24:04/24:12 b,d,e Peggy's Blue Skylight 12:50 a,c,e Notes:

1. 'Fables Of Faubus' is edited from the full length of 35:00 (according to Lindenmaier/Salewski)
2. The timings for 'So Long Eric' and 'Parkeriana' come from d (they're wrong in liner notes)
3. *) During this performance of 'So Long Eric', Johnny Coles collapsed due to a perforated gastric ulcer; he was hospitalized at the American Clinic at Neuilly, France, for the remainder of the Charles Mingus European Tour 1964,

   Musidisc 500072 MU 763 and America AM 003-004-005 (3LP) contain an edited version of 'So Long Eric' (see April 19 for more information),

   'So Long Eric' is mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' on d and e

a) Le Jazz CD 19

b) Le Jazz CD 38

c) France's Concert FCD 102

d) France's Concert FCD 110

e) Revenge 32002

f) France's Concert FC 102 (LP)

April 19

Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 5:52/6:12 a,b Fables Of Faubus 27:30/27:47 a,b Parkeriana 23:25/23:35 a,b Meditations 21:47/23:04 a,b* Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 14:05/16:00 a So Long Eric (edited) 5:40 b I Can't Get Started unissued Notes:

1. The concert started 0.10 a.m. and ended 2.45 a.m. (according to Musidisc liner notes) - therefore this is under April 19, not April 18
2. *) 'Meditations' lasts 27:30 on America 3LP-set
3. 'So Long Eric' (23:21/27:10) on Musidisc (mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat'), which features Coles, is actually an edited version from Salle Wagram and it fades in the end of Dolphy's alto sax solo before Richmond's drum solo.
4. 'Sophisticated Lady' is a duet featuring Byard and Mingus
5. Johnny Coles did not play in this concert, although some of the liner notes claim otherwise

That discog is slightly botched. "Orange Was the Color of Her Dress" is definitely on c.

Bottom line: if you have the 2 late 80s Esoldun/INA releases -- c and d in that discography -- you do not need e. All 3 of c, d and e do incorrectly state the date as 4/18/64.

Except those were bootlegs and the Revenge! release isn't.

[JETman]

The Revenge release is the April 17 concert; The "Great Concert..." is the April 19 concert, except it includes Goodbye Eric from April 17. European tour discography here: http://mingus.onttonen.info/1964.html April 17

Salle Wagram, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 3:20 f So Long Eric* 28:23/28:51 b,d,e Meditations 22:30 a,c,e Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 11:35 a,e Fables Of Faubus 24:53 a,c,e Parkeriana 24:04/24:12 b,d,e Peggy's Blue Skylight 12:50 a,c,e Notes:

1. 'Fables Of Faubus' is edited from the full length of 35:00 (according to Lindenmaier/Salewski)
2. The timings for 'So Long Eric' and 'Parkeriana' come from d (they're wrong in liner notes)
3. *) During this performance of 'So Long Eric', Johnny Coles collapsed due to a perforated gastric ulcer; he was hospitalized at the American Clinic at Neuilly, France, for the remainder of the Charles Mingus European Tour 1964,

   Musidisc 500072 MU 763 and America AM 003-004-005 (3LP) contain an edited version of 'So Long Eric' (see April 19 for more information),

   'So Long Eric' is mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' on d and e

a) Le Jazz CD 19

b) Le Jazz CD 38

c) France's Concert FCD 102

d) France's Concert FCD 110

e) Revenge 32002

f) France's Concert FC 102 (LP)

April 19

Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris, France Sophisticated Lady 5:52/6:12 a,b Fables Of Faubus 27:30/27:47 a,b Parkeriana 23:25/23:35 a,b Meditations 21:47/23:04 a,b* Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress 14:05/16:00 a So Long Eric (edited) 5:40 b I Can't Get Started unissued Notes:

1. The concert started 0.10 a.m. and ended 2.45 a.m. (according to Musidisc liner notes) - therefore this is under April 19, not April 18
2. *) 'Meditations' lasts 27:30 on America 3LP-set
3. 'So Long Eric' (23:21/27:10) on Musidisc (mistitled 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat'), which features Coles, is actually an edited version from Salle Wagram and it fades in the end of Dolphy's alto sax solo before Richmond's drum solo.
4. 'Sophisticated Lady' is a duet featuring Byard and Mingus
5. Johnny Coles did not play in this concert, although some of the liner notes claim otherwise

That discog is slightly botched. "Orange Was the Color of Her Dress" is definitely on c.

Bottom line: if you have the 2 late 80s Esoldun/INA releases -- c and d in that discography -- you do not need e. All 3 of c, d and e do incorrectly state the date as 4/18/64.

Except those were bootlegs and the Revenge! release isn't.

Without getting into THAT whole argument, so what? The INA's sound good and they were released 10 years before Revenge! Since they were available, and nobody had access to a crystal ball, it was just another case of "buy it now or lose the chance forever". If someone here has neither, by all means, go for the legit release. However, playing the "although I already have it, I'll buy the legit one anyway" game is often a "fool's game" and reeks of hypocrisy, at that. And if you believe that buying Revenge will encourage Ms. Mingus to release more, that simply isn't going to happen. I've been told that whatever she had left ended up in the Mosaic Jazz Workshop box.

[Tom in RI]

Wasn't there a pressing problem with the Revenge set? IIRC there was a defective disc. If you are buying a used set it might have the defect.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Tom in RI

[jazzbo]

Actually J I think there's at least one more in Sue's handbag, the Ronnie Scott thing. I hope that comes out one of these days.

[king ubu]

Actually J I think there's at least one more in Sue's handbag, the Ronnie Scott thing. I hope that comes out one of these days.

Yup!

And please don't give us that hypocrisy crap again, there's really no need to go there. We all know some business is destroyed by bootleggers, we know some legit business is marred by inability of businesspersons (or mere unwillingness to do something ... how 'bout the Xanadu catalogue please?) ... so here and there, bootleggers step in and we are glad they do, but with someone such as Sue Mingus, I'm happy to re-buy stuff. She did a few good things: Revenge!, the UCLA set, now the glorious Mosaic box ... if the Ronnie's recordings get out as well, I'd love it, obviously! (Although, of course the music's in circulation so I might be a hypocrite if I buy it, but I don't give a flying poop, really.)

[JETman]

Actually J I think there's at least one more in Sue's handbag, the Ronnie Scott thing. I hope that comes out one of these days.

Yup!

And please don't give us that hypocrisy crap again, there's really no need to go there. We all know some business is destroyed by bootleggers, we know some legit business is marred by inability of businesspersons (or mere unwillingness to do something ... how 'bout the Xanadu catalogue please?) ... so here and there, bootleggers step in and we are glad they do, but with someone such as Sue Mingus, I'm happy to re-buy stuff. She did a few good things: Revenge!, the UCLA set, now the glorious Mosaic box ... if the Ronnie's recordings get out as well, I'd love it, obviously! (Although, of course the music's in circulation so I might be a hypocrite if I buy it, but I don't give a flying poop, really.)

This is an incredibly naive point of view, without even taking into account that (a) not many people are made of money AND (b) absolutely nobody here is interested in making others solvent more than they're interested in doing what's best for themselves. First of all, when the INA's were released, nobody was aware that they were bootleg CDs (after all it was early in the CD game, and Tower was selling them like hot cakes at prices which could hardly be termed "cheap"). Secondly, the material was so compelling that nobody in their right minds was thinking "oh wait, maybe Sue will release this stuff one day". Nobody knew she had the material in her possession, and even if a few did, it certainly was not widespread knowledge. Please DO NOT look down your nose at me (UNLESS, of course, you can actually "cast the first stone", as they say) -- I am relatively sure that at that time, and over the years, I have been fairly busy helping to make sure that thousands of artists (including Mingus, many times over) have been fairly (or unfairly, depending on one's point of view) compensated for their work. Not that I should need to explain myself to you, but buying music by the boatload does not exactly allow for making the types of purchases you describe "top priority". I was happy to see Ms. Mingus take a stand. That does NOT mean that I (or anyone, for that matter) was obligated to help fund her business endeavors. FWIW, while I was busy buying up that boatload of music I referred to earlier, I was, as a matter of course and fact, buying every single one of the Mingus Big Band releases AND occasionally, spending time and a few weak American dollars on their live performances. So please, leave the moronic and naive arguments to others. They don't sound especially convincing coming from someone your age who has not parted with as much time, energy, intensity, determination (and dinero) that myself and others here and elsewhere have.

[king ubu]

I'm not saying anything that makes your decision to buy these at the time wrong. No need to get personally insulting.

I would have bought those INA discs had I been around and seen 'em, for sure. And yeah, we all know rekkid business is evil anyway and no one gets properly paid - but no reason to get flat out cynical about it all.

I'm not picking a fight here, it's all about the music and I'm really just expressing my gratitude for what Sue Mingus did and does - that's all there is to it.

[JETman]

I'm not saying anything that makes your decision to buy these at the time wrong. No need to get personally insulting.

I would have bought those INA discs had I been around and seen 'em, for sure. And yeah, we all know rekkid business is evil anyway and no one gets properly paid - but no reason to get flat out cynical about it all.

I'm not picking a fight here, it's all about the music and I'm really just expressing my gratitude for what Sue Mingus did and does - that's all there is to it.

And as I pointed out, I too have expressed my gratitude to Sue with my wallet. There is no fail safe here and there is no way to make sure it's done "properly" in each and every situation. Caveat emptor, as they say. A certain onus is on the buyer, for sure. However, my major issue in this argument is the blind labeling of people who have occasionally thought of their own interests as "unusual", "thieves" or even wholly "unappreciative" of the efforts of those in the biz. That is simply not the case in my case. I certainly would have liked to have "paid" the artist here, but at who's expense? With me, it would have meant NOT paying someone else. I have avoided buying too many things OVER and OVER simply because I have always sought to have more music in the collection, plain and simple.

No harm. Carry on.