Name some Prestige CDs you find underrated

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Certainly often those Prestige CD twofers had ugly covers ... but then the point is that an LP cover shrinked to CD size is never ever "original", it's just never the same and I will never get that fake pretension lying underneath the transposition of one format onto another - it just doesn't work. The "original album concept" for CD reissues of albusm originally on vinyl is bonkers (and I'm mostly a CD person, as you know), it's not taking the "original" its dignity if bonus tracks get added or cover art gets adapted ... reissue is never original.

And as for "ignoring", all I meant is I mentioned that twofer a few minutes before MG did.

Yes, we were writing simultaneously, but I had to look at the timings for 'Trust in me' and 'Blue odyssey', the latter of which has never come out on CD, as far as I'm aware.

MG

[king ubu]

here's the CD version of the terrific Pleyel 1948 concert of Dizzy's:

I'd love to read those Morgenstern liners though ... can anyone help me out there?

[mjzee]

here's the CD version of the terrific Pleyel 1948 concert of Dizzy's:

I'd love to read those Morgenstern liners though ... can anyone help me out there?

It's also in the recent Jazz On Vogue box.

[JSngry]

PR 7541 Buddy Terry - Natural Soul

Woody Shaw (trumpet, flugelhorn) Buddy Terry (tenor saxophone) Joe Thomas (tenor saxophone, flute) Robbie Porter (baritone saxophone) Larry Young (piano, organ) Jiggs Chase (organ) Wally Richardson (guitar) Jimmy Lewis (electric bass) Eddie Gladden (drums)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, November 15, 1967

A Natural Woman

Natural Soul

Quiet Days And Lonely Nights

Pedro The One Arm Bandit

Don't Be So Mean

The Revealing Time

PR 7525 Buddy Terry - Electric Soul!

Jimmy Owens (trumpet, flugelhorn) Buddy Terry (tenor saxophone, varitone) Harold Mabern (electric piano) Ron Carter (bass) Freddie Waits (drums)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, February 23, 1967

Everything Is Everything

Hey Nellie

Jimmy

Alfie

Electric Soul!

The Ubangi That Got Away

Band Bandit

[mjzee]

PR 7541 Buddy Terry - Natural Soul

Woody Shaw (trumpet, flugelhorn) Buddy Terry (tenor saxophone) Joe Thomas (tenor saxophone, flute) Robbie Porter (baritone saxophone) Larry Young (piano, organ) Jiggs Chase (organ) Wally Richardson (guitar) Jimmy Lewis (electric bass) Eddie Gladden (drums)

One thing that intrigues me about Prestige are the obscure musicians who appear on some of their recordings. Leaving aside that I've never heard of Buddy Terry, I certainly have never heard of Jiggs Chase or Robbie Porter. These help tell a story that jazz isn't just about "stars" or "geniuses," but also of a whole community of largely-untold musicians. Makes it more interesting.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Jiggs Chase is actually an important musician. But not an important jazz musician. Here's what I wrote about him in a thread called 'From Wild Bill Davis to Jimmy Smith' in a section covering later followers of Wild Bill.

Jiggs Chase deserves to be a LOT better known than he is. As far as I know, he didn’t record until 1964, with the Joe Thomas/Bill Elliott band on the Sue LP ‘Speak your piece’. He also appeared on one track of Buddy Terry’s LP ‘Natural soul’ on which Larry Young played piano! In subsequent years, he was mainly associated with Joe Thomas but also appeared on one side of Pharoah Sanders’ India Navigation LP ‘Pharoah’ in 1976. On all these jazz sides, he showed himself to be a late follower of Wild Bill Davis. It seems, on first blush, very odd to find him in Pharoah’s company but the other side of that LP features Bedria Sanders on harmonium so that was obviously a sound that Pharoah wanted.

Later, he became a producer for Sugar Hill records and produced, co-composed and arranged one of the greatest Rap classics ever – ‘The message’ by Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five. He also produced, arranged and wrote for Gloria Gaynor, Patti LaBelle, Kool & the Gang, Cheena, the Sequence and other rap and soul artists. Who knew?

So there you are

MG

[soulpope]

PR 7541 Buddy Terry - Natural Soul

Woody Shaw (trumpet, flugelhorn) Buddy Terry (tenor saxophone) Joe Thomas (tenor saxophone, flute) Robbie Porter (baritone saxophone) Larry Young (piano, organ) Jiggs Chase (organ) Wally Richardson (guitar) Jimmy Lewis (electric bass) Eddie Gladden (drums)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, November 15, 1967

A Natural Woman

Natural Soul

Quiet Days And Lonely Nights

Pedro The One Arm Bandit

Don't Be So Mean

The Revealing Time

PR 7525 Buddy Terry - Electric Soul!

Jimmy Owens (trumpet, flugelhorn) Buddy Terry (tenor saxophone, varitone) Harold Mabern (electric piano) Ron Carter (bass) Freddie Waits (drums)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, February 23, 1967

Everything Is Everything

Hey Nellie

Jimmy

Alfie

Electric Soul!

The Ubangi That Got Away

Band Bandit

YESSSS !!!

[JSngry]

Any chance at all that "Robbie Porter" was a young Bob Porter?

[BeBop]

Any chance at all that "Robbie Porter" was a young Bob Porter?

(I'll bet Chuck Nessa knows)

(Or maybe not)

Edited September 7, 2014 by BeBop

[Larry Kart]

Yeah, so do most people

Personally, I find Fuller's sound completely characterless - no vibrato, no colour, just like J J Johnson's, in fact.

Let me have trombonists about me that are fat with big brash sounds full of personal quirks like Bennie Green, Kid Ory, J C Higginbotham, Fred Wesley, Lawrence Brown, Wayne Henderson, Harold Betters and the uncredited man who did a solo on the original version of 'Don't answer the door' by Jimmy Johnson.

I don't like those smooth guys who tone down their sounds so they can play fast.

MG

I don't entirely agree about Fuller -- he seemed to me to be quite tonally colorful/expressive when I heard him with Joe Henderson's sadly under-recorded "In Pursuit of Blackness" band in 1971 -- but given your tastes in trombonists, do you know the explosive Buster Cooper? I particularly recommend his playing on A.K. Salim's 1957 Savoy album "Pretty for the People," which has a rather astonishing lineup: Kenny Dorham, Cooper, Johnny Griffin, Pepper Adams, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Max Roach, and Chino Pozo. Everyone is in fine form, too.

http://www.amazon.com/Pretty-People-K-Salim/dp/B0037KTC4U/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1410057457&sr=1-1&keywords=salim+pretty+for+the+people

[JSngry]

Any chance at all that "Robbie Porter" was a young Bob Porter?

(I'll bet Chuck Nessa knows)

(Or maybe not)

Probably not the same guy...here's another item with Robbie Porter - and Jiggs Chase!

http://www.discogs.com/Joe-Thomas-3-And-Bill-Elliott-Speak-Your-Piece/release/4020299

[jlhoots]

If it hasn't been mentioned, Mose Allison: Back Country Suite.

[kh1958]

The two I listened to this morning, Coleman Hawkins Quartet Plays the Music of No Strings (Moodsville) (Tommy Flanagan, Major Holley, Eddie Locke), and the Oliver Nelson arranged, Frank Wess, Southern Comfort.

[Joe]

Oliver Nelson's Moodsville date -- NOCTURNE, with Lem Winchester, Richard Wyands, George Duvivier and Roy Haynes -- is another favorite. Sometimes the Moodsville dates can be a little too snoozy, but: 1) we're still talking Oliver Nelson here ; 2) consider that rhythm section; 3) Winchester had a wonderful rapport with Nelson, but this is their final recorded meeting, so there's a bittersweet quality to this date akin to what I feel when I listen to Sonny Clark's LEAPIN' AND LOPIN'.

More thoughts here:

http://www.bagatellen.com/?p=322

[Jim R]

As big a Butler fan as I am, I find his Prestige albums very uneven, and for me, much of the material has not stood the test of time. However, "Dancing On The Ceiling" from YT&T is a ****ing guitar masterpiece. For me, it's just as masterful (moreso, probably, due to the chord/melody intro) and breathtaking as the original recording of "Honky Tonk" with Doggett, and that's saying something.

It's on this CD twofer, along with "Night Life":

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Any chance at all that "Robbie Porter" was a young Bob Porter?

(I'll bet Chuck Nessa knows)

(Or maybe not)

Probably not the same guy...here's another item with Robbie Porter - and Jiggs Chase!

http://www.discogs.com/Joe-Thomas-3-And-Bill-Elliott-Speak-Your-Piece/release/4020299

Beat me to it. A hell of an album. If we had a thread on underrated Sue albums, that'd be on it.

Without looking at the discographical details, I'd be pretty sure anyway that Bob was already producing for Prestige when that Buddy Terry album was made. (And note, Joe Thomas was on it too; looks like the Newark mafia was out in force - did Ozzie Cadena produce the album?)

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yeah, so do most people

Personally, I find Fuller's sound completely characterless - no vibrato, no colour, just like J J Johnson's, in fact.

Let me have trombonists about me that are fat with big brash sounds full of personal quirks like Bennie Green, Kid Ory, J C Higginbotham, Fred Wesley, Lawrence Brown, Wayne Henderson, Harold Betters and the uncredited man who did a solo on the original version of 'Don't answer the door' by Jimmy Johnson.

I don't like those smooth guys who tone down their sounds so they can play fast.

MG

I don't entirely agree about Fuller -- he seemed to me to be quite tonally colorful/expressive when I heard him with Joe Henderson's sadly under-recorded "In Pursuit of Blackness" band in 1971 -- but given your tastes in trombonists, do you know the explosive Buster Cooper? I particularly recommend his playing on A.K. Salim's 1957 Savoy album "Pretty for the People," which has a rather astonishing lineup: Kenny Dorham, Cooper, Johnny Griffin, Pepper Adams, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Max Roach, and Chino Pozo. Everyone is in fine form, too.

http://www.amazon.com/Pretty-People-K-Salim/dp/B0037KTC4U/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1410057457&sr=1-1&keywords=salim+pretty+for+the+people

Yes - the only album I've heard with him on it is Arnett Cobb's 'Smooth sailing'. A splendid player, I thought.

MG

[Peter Friedman]

If you like big toned trombone players, Wycliffe Gordon fits into that category. He has a huge tone.

[Larry Kart]

If you like big toned trombone players, Wycliffe Gordon fits into that category. He has a huge tone.

Yes, but in my experience he makes a buzz saw sound subtle. Also, don't tell me about "tradition." In the glorious history of the trombone in so-called traditional jazz, I don't know of anyone who ever played the horn as crudely as Gordon does, at least not willfully.

[jlhoots]

If it hasn't been mentioned, Mose Allison: Back Country Suite.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

If you like big toned trombone players, Wycliffe Gordon fits into that category. He has a huge tone.

Yes, but in my experience he makes a buzz saw sound subtle. Also, don't tell me about "tradition." In the glorious history of the trombone in so-called traditional jazz, I don't know of anyone who ever played the horn as crudely as Gordon does, at least not willfully.

Does that mean that Gordon can't play well, or that he can but makes bad decisions?

MG

[Larry Kart]

If you like big toned trombone players, Wycliffe Gordon fits into that category. He has a huge tone.

Yes, but in my experience he makes a buzz saw sound subtle. Also, don't tell me about "tradition." In the glorious history of the trombone in so-called traditional jazz, I don't know of anyone who ever played the horn as crudely as Gordon does, at least not willfully.

Does that mean that Gordon can't play well, or that he can but makes bad decisions?

MG

It means IMO that some early jazz trombonists -- e.g. Kid Ory, Honore Dutrey, Ike Rogers -- played in an arguably crude, blatant, awkward manner (rhythmically, in terms of timbre, phrasing etc., albeit not, at best, without significant emotional power that served the ensembles they were part of) because they didn't have much if any choice about it. The trombone in their hands was, so to speak, still a relatively blunt instrument; it would be up to players like Jimmy Harrison, Miff Mole, and Jack Teagarden to change things/present new options.

As for Gordon's making bad decisions, that judgment is in the ears of the beholder. What I meant is that Gordon chooses to play with IMO considerable timbral crudeness and to fairly often phrase in a similarly blatant manner when he almost certainly knows his way around the instrument more than well enough to play somewhat otherwise. This, again I think, was not the case with figures like Ory, Dutrey, and Rodgers. I brought them up BTW because I have the impression that some of Gordon's fans think that he plays the way he does because he's honoring and elaborating on the tradition of trombone playing in early jazz. My experience of trombone playing in early jazz suggests suggests that this would-be connection is stylistically and historically dubious. Further, and perhaps most important, if one has a taste for big-toned blustery trombonists of many eras, as you do, I see little or no relationship between the playing of Gordon and that of the big-toned, non-J.J. inclined, trombonists that you've mentioned and admire.

[StarThrower]

Let's think about the works by Eric Dolphy and Yusef Lateef recorded for Prestige.

Those are tops in my collection. Yusef Lateef was one of the great unsung masters.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

If you like big toned trombone players, Wycliffe Gordon fits into that category. He has a huge tone.

Yes, but in my experience he makes a buzz saw sound subtle. Also, don't tell me about "tradition." In the glorious history of the trombone in so-called traditional jazz, I don't know of anyone who ever played the horn as crudely as Gordon does, at least not willfully.

Does that mean that Gordon can't play well, or that he can but makes bad decisions?

MG

It means IMO that some early jazz trombonists -- e.g. Kid Ory, Honore Dutrey, Ike Rogers -- played in an arguably crude, blatant, awkward manner (rhythmically, in terms of timbre, phrasing etc., albeit not, at best, without significant emotional power that served the ensembles they were part of) because they didn't have much if any choice about it. The trombone in their hands was, so to speak, still a relatively blunt instrument; it would be up to players like Jimmy Harrison, Miff Mole, and Jack Teagarden to change things/present new options.

As for Gordon's making bad decisions, that judgment is in the ears of the beholder. What I meant is that Gordon chooses to play with IMO considerable timbral crudeness and to fairly often phrase in a similarly blatant manner when he almost certainly knows his way around the instrument more than well enough to play somewhat otherwise. This, again I think, was not the case with figures like Ory, Dutrey, and Rodgers. I brought them up BTW because I have the impression that some of Gordon's fans think that he plays the way he does because he's honoring and elaborating on the tradition of trombone playing in early jazz. My experience of trombone playing in early jazz suggests suggests that this would-be connection is stylistically and historically dubious. Further, and perhaps most important, if one has a taste for big-toned blustery trombonists of many eras, as you do, I see little or no relationship between the playing of Gordon and that of the big-toned, non-J.J. inclined, trombonists that you've mentioned and admire.

Thank you, Larry.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Talking about those trombonists and their stylistic subtlety (or non-subtlety), where would Bill Harris fit in, then?

I have read contemporary (50s) sources (jazz mags/books) where his playing is described as "vulgar".

How about that? How would such a judgment come about, comparatively speaking?

(Note that I am not judging, just quoting )