Is streaming technology saving the music industry?

[psu_13]

Of course, people might disagree...

http://properdiscord.com/2014/07/22/scott-timberg-ive-got-a-bone-to-pick-with-you/

Heh.

[Scott Dolan]

I know for the general populace (not here) that is not the case. Over the weekend we had a few "normal" friends over and due to the distractions involved I simply played a Pandora station. After a while they commented that there were no ads. When I shared that I was a subscriber and there were no ads they were truly surprised that someone would actually PAY when you could get it for free. The higher quality bit rate and lack of ads be damned. Note these were folks in their late 20's early 30's. Therein lies the problem.

We are at the point now where it's totally a non-issue for the general populace. You just don't pay for music. It's as natural as breathing. You are not any less of a man if you don't pay for music.

I don't even know anymore (as in, with regards to this topic, not in a throwing my hands up at humanity thing). All i'll say is that i like CDs and i'll keep buying them as long as they keep making them. I like having a hard copy and the convenience to rip it as i please. I also like using Spotify to check stuff out, and i can see myself using it more down the line for the convenience of it, but there's just something hardwired in me that i need to own the CD. If/when it gets to the point where the artists that i follow offer download/streaming only then i'll adjust, as there will be no other option. As long as there is a CD then i need the CD. If/when it does get to the point where everything is in the cloud and it's all a big stream, i think i will only stream new stuff, it seems pointless to pay for downloads. My listening/collecting life will be divided into a CD and post-CD era. I guess that's kind of redundant to say, but it kind of helps me to be at peace with it.

I'm the opposite, I haven't bought a CD in years. I see no sense buying a CD I'm simply going to rip and put on my already bursting CD rack and never touch again.

But, I also don't use a streaming service. I will preview the odd album on Spotify, but then I either buy it, or never listen to it again. In the last year (since I was first turned on to Spotify), I've probably logged less than ten hours on the service.

And BTW, before we start shaking our heads and muttering about "goddamn kids these days", we all grew up listening to the radio. Far as I recall, we didn't pay for that either. So let's not act as though listening to music for free is some strange, new phenomenon.

[David Ayers]

Of course, people might disagree...

http://properdiscord.com/2014/07/22/scott-timberg-ive-got-a-bone-to-pick-with-you/

Heh.

Heh heh. After home-taping killed music I'm surprised there is a note left to be heard anywhere.

[Paradiddle]

I know for the general populace (not here) that is not the case. Over the weekend we had a few "normal" friends over and due to the distractions involved I simply played a Pandora station. After a while they commented that there were no ads. When I shared that I was a subscriber and there were no ads they were truly surprised that someone would actually PAY when you could get it for free. The higher quality bit rate and lack of ads be damned. Note these were folks in their late 20's early 30's. Therein lies the problem.

We are at the point now where it's totally a non-issue for the general populace. You just don't pay for music. It's as natural as breathing. You are not any less of a man if you don't pay for music.

I don't even know anymore (as in, with regards to this topic, not in a throwing my hands up at humanity thing). All i'll say is that i like CDs and i'll keep buying them as long as they keep making them. I like having a hard copy and the convenience to rip it as i please. I also like using Spotify to check stuff out, and i can see myself using it more down the line for the convenience of it, but there's just something hardwired in me that i need to own the CD. If/when it gets to the point where the artists that i follow offer download/streaming only then i'll adjust, as there will be no other option. As long as there is a CD then i need the CD. If/when it does get to the point where everything is in the cloud and it's all a big stream, i think i will only stream new stuff, it seems pointless to pay for downloads. My listening/collecting life will be divided into a CD and post-CD era. I guess that's kind of redundant to say, but it kind of helps me to be at peace with it.

I'm the opposite, I haven't bought a CD in years. I see no sense buying a CD I'm simply going to rip and put on my already bursting CD rack and never touch again.

But, I also don't use a streaming service. I will preview the odd album on Spotify, but then I either buy it, or never listen to it again. In the last year (since I was first turned on to Spotify), I've probably logged less than ten hours on the service.

And BTW, before we start shaking our heads and muttering about "goddamn kids these days", we all grew up listening to the radio. Far as I recall, we didn't pay for that either. So let's not act as though listening to music for free is some strange, new phenomenon.

Amazing how one can post ~600 words sharing their personal aesthetic when it comes to the OP and, in support of not only streaming services but the need for musicians to get paid (does anyone really have an issue with that?) and yet someone can glom onto 5 or 6 words out of that 600, possibly in an attempt to negate the validity of the entire post? I'm still trying to find the quote where "goddamn kids these days" was used. I don't consider someone who is a professional and 32 years old a "kid". How do you know I'm not 30 and talking about my peers?

The point, in case it was lost by the mention of someone's age in order to offer context, is that streaming services can indeed help the "industry" and the musicians as long as someone is getting remunerated for their efforts. If we all just stopped paying for music how is that sustainable in the long term? Sure, we all listen/listened to terrestrial radio but the purpose of radio broadcasting music and songs was, wait for it.....to sell music, and ads of course. But who wants to be continually bombarded with inane screaming ads all the time? Call 1-800-No-Thanks now!

Ultimately, someone has got to get paid. I hope it's the musicians, artists and engineers. I witnessed the so-called "death" of the professional recording studio during the late 90's and 2000's, when the mega-labels were no longer giving big advances and paying for bands to "lock-out" a studio for a month to work on and record an album. Many big studios failed, but now, not only have many returned, but there's an influx of new facilities being built, albeit with a slightly different business model, more diversified in many cases.

Here's hoping that the next wave of James Farbers, Jim Andersons, and Jan Erik Kongshaugs have a job, and all those "goddamn kids today" who are in their garages woodshedding and studying can support themselves and their families while they bring us their artistry.

[Scott Dolan]

If my response had been addressed to you, I guess you'd have some kind of point (though I have no idea what it would be). But, it wasn't, I was addressing xybert's comments.

[xybert]

I know for the general populace (not here) that is not the case. Over the weekend we had a few "normal" friends over and due to the distractions involved I simply played a Pandora station. After a while they commented that there were no ads. When I shared that I was a subscriber and there were no ads they were truly surprised that someone would actually PAY when you could get it for free. The higher quality bit rate and lack of ads be damned. Note these were folks in their late 20's early 30's. Therein lies the problem.

We are at the point now where it's totally a non-issue for the general populace. You just don't pay for music. It's as natural as breathing. You are not any less of a man if you don't pay for music.

I don't even know anymore (as in, with regards to this topic, not in a throwing my hands up at humanity thing). All i'll say is that i like CDs and i'll keep buying them as long as they keep making them. I like having a hard copy and the convenience to rip it as i please. I also like using Spotify to check stuff out, and i can see myself using it more down the line for the convenience of it, but there's just something hardwired in me that i need to own the CD. If/when it gets to the point where the artists that i follow offer download/streaming only then i'll adjust, as there will be no other option. As long as there is a CD then i need the CD. If/when it does get to the point where everything is in the cloud and it's all a big stream, i think i will only stream new stuff, it seems pointless to pay for downloads. My listening/collecting life will be divided into a CD and post-CD era. I guess that's kind of redundant to say, but it kind of helps me to be at peace with it.

I'm the opposite, I haven't bought a CD in years. I see no sense buying a CD I'm simply going to rip and put on my already bursting CD rack and never touch again.

But, I also don't use a streaming service. I will preview the odd album on Spotify, but then I either buy it, or never listen to it again. In the last year (since I was first turned on to Spotify), I've probably logged less than ten hours on the service.

And BTW, before we start shaking our heads and muttering about "goddamn kids these days", we all grew up listening to the radio. Far as I recall, we didn't pay for that either. So let's not act as though listening to music for free is some strange, new phenomenon.

Fair enough! I've mentioned elsewhere that the first thing i do when a CD arrives is rip it to my computer; the CD then goes on the shelf and rarely if ever gets touched again. So effectively all of my listening is of digital files, but i just like having that physical copy there if i need it. Just my preference! At first i was going to say "even if it is a silly preference", but actually there are more than a few tangible (pun intended) benefits to having a hard copy, in my view. I won't bother listing them as again it's just my preference and we could go round and round on it.

When i said "I don't even know anymore (as in, with regards to this topic... )" i wasn't being passive aggressive or whatever: i really don't know! I used to think it was fairly simple: people not buying music is not fair and overall is bad for musicians and, yes, the 'industry', and by extension bad for myself as a listener. Now i feel like i am not that informed and there are a million different angles to it, and maybe it'll all work out for the better. Either way, i can't control it. Yeah, the radio! Not quite the same as Spotify but i get your point. We all used to dub CDs on to tapes for friends etc...

All i'll say is that i like CDs and i'll keep buying them as long as they keep making them...

[Scott Dolan]

We're speaking the same language, xybert.

Just had to make sure.

[Paradiddle]

If my response had been addressed to you, I guess you'd have some kind of point (though I have no idea what it would be). But, it wasn't, I was addressing xybert's comments.

I received an alert stating you "quoted" my post, my first notification here actually. There was no attempt to delete my portion of your quoted text so how is one to know it was not directed at me as well? I simply wanted to further qualify it.

[JSngry]

Ok, I'm new to Pandora, really liking the breadth of variety available (although perhaps not the depth, we'll see how that plays out over time...I'm starting to see different selections from the same few albums over and over again...), but my question to those of you have used it for a while is this - is there ever a point where all my finely-(a)tuned stations merge into one, like will I ever get to one station where Monday Michiru is followed by Morton Feldman is followed by Duke Ellington is followed by Bird is followed by Cathy Berberian is followed by AEC, on and on, or is my best bet to keep (a)tuning those individual stations and then at some point go into shuffle/random/whatever it is mode? Because that's what I really want out of a streaming music service, all that is good, and in no particular order.

Or does Spotify do that better? Or, perhaps, whose dream am I having, and what time does the alarm go off?

And really, this "Musical Genome" thing has me nervously laughing, looking at the "qualities" one piece shares and then seeing where it leads. This is particularity unsettling on the Monday Michiru station, where I guess they only have one album to offer (Soulception), and apparently they think that because I like a female singer doing original material with interesting arrangements and harmonic choices that I will then like a whole slew of female droney-ass "jazz singers" doing catatonic versions of tired old standards. Wrong! I quickly added some artists to the station, and have started getting somewhat better results (however, the depth of the catalog they have available really shows in some of these more niche-ier musics, at least early on it does). But equation-based taste is not any kind of math for which I feel any particular sympathy or enthusiasm.

The only stations that have to this point behaved as I would have hoped/expected are the AEC and the Morton Feldman.

Seriously thinking about creating a Paul Revere & The Raiders station just to see which way that goes. But life is short, even when it's free.

[Shawn]

Spotify is a different animal than Pandora. Spotify has entire albums, so you can either listen to an entire record or make your own playlists or discover via their programmed playlists (more like Pandora).

Radio has really never been my thing, I don't want someone else choosing what I'm going to listen to, I'd rather program that myself, so Spotify works for me whereas I found Pandora annoying.

For a Pandora station to work for me it would have to feature "schizophrenic stations" where it's a mix of jazz, progressive rock and heavy metal with occasional forays into classical, folk, blues, funk and movie soundtracks.

[JSngry]

I caught the tail end of underground/free-form radio (and grew up in the heyday of good/true Top 40), so radio itself has always been something I enjoyed when it was good, and kinda felt "betrayed" by when it wasn't. The notion of having somebody play all these hip records on the radio for you while you worked/studied/read/whatever is something that can still give me the beginnings of an experiential chubby just as quickly as the notion of people skullfucking you with corporate brainwashing/ed vomitradio can make it go away.

Not sure if this streaming services thing (or anything, really) is ever going to be that again, but one can hope in one hand, piss in the other, and see which one fills up first, I suppose.

[AllenLowe]

if all your listening is computer based (and I apologize if someone has already addressed this); are you not limiting your listening to speakers which, even if higher-end powered speakers, are going to be sub par? Yes, you can do it otherwise by connecting through a power amp; but you will still likely have to use an inferior analog out. At least if you have a MAC. Though I guess there are much better digital output possibilities with a PC.

Edited July 23, 2014 by AllenLowe

[David Ayers]

if all your listening is computer based (and I apologize if someone has already addressed this); are you not limiting your listening to speakers which, even if higher-end powered speakers, are going to be sub par? Yes, you can do it otherwise by connecting through a power amp; but you will still likely have to use an inferior analog out.

People now use Sonos Connect or similar. It's all taken care of.

[Scott Dolan]

Actually, you'd be using a USB out to either a DAC or preamp.

Or, as in my case, I'm streaming it wirelessly to my Apple TV from which I run a digital optical out to my DAC which then feeds the analog signal to my preamp.

I suppose if I didn't cherish laziness I could walk to the computer room on the other side of the house and grab a CD. But, since there is no difference in sound quality, AND I can control my entire library with my iPad, wireless streaming it is!

[Shawn]

if all your listening is computer based (and I apologize if someone has already addressed this); are you not limiting your listening to speakers which, even if higher-end powered speakers, are going to be sub par? Yes, you can do it otherwise by connecting through a power amp; but you will still likely have to use an inferior analog out. At least if you have a MAC. Though I guess there are much better digital output possibilities with a PC.

What? There are just as many hi-quality audio options available from Macs as PCs. In a side by side comparison my Mac sounds just as good as a transport as my Sony blu-ray player does.

[xybert]

I just bluetooth from my macbook to my stereo, or bluetooth from my ipod to my stereo, or just plug my ipod in to my stereo either via the headphone/ 1/4 inch jack or via USB. Probably less than ideal but it sounds good to me. At some point in the future i'll probably set up a better system with a decent DAC etc, but there's no hurry.

[AllenLowe]

I have yet to see a MAC with a decent and easily use-able digital output for audio; or anything analog other than a mini jack. if there is one, I'd like to know about it.

though now that I think about it you could use a USB interface if it had a digitial SPDIF output.

but if at any point coming out you have a conversion stage - to analog before going back to digital - there will be some degredation; and I am thinking in this direction because I do a lot of mastering.

Edited July 23, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Scott Dolan]

I have yet to see a MAC with a decent and easily use-able digital output for audio

Allen, you know I love you brother, but what the hell are you talking about?

How does it get any easier than a USB outlet?

USB to DAC. After that, the world is your oyster...

We're only talking about zeroes and ones here...

[AllenLowe]

I hate USB; if you want to go to line for audio you need an interface; I want to stay digital for remastering purposes; so I would really rather just have some kind of hdmi-like line connection, which does not exist for MAC -

[JSngry]

Seriously thinking about creating a Paul Revere & The Raiders station just to see which way that goes. But life is short, even when it's free.

Well, not too short apparently! Set up the Raiders station lat night and played it this morning, with remarkably consistent results (mostly high energy mid-late 60s commercial garage-y-ish pop). Didn't "like" anything, and only "rejected" a rare handful (Herman's Hermits (yuck), The Vogues (dubble yuck), The Hollies "Long Cool Woman" (nope, too late in their game for me), and "Get Together" by the Youngbloods (not on THIS station)) and only skipped one - a 70s Guess Who cut that was ok, but too "modern" in recording/production.

Biggest surprises - as much Eric Burdon/Animals as Paul Revere, and plenty of "raw" DC5.

Biggest worry - just hits so far. Afraid to "like" for fear of that damned "musical genome" thing getting all mutational with unpleasant results, but maybe that's how the Pandora math works? Looking for some deeper cuts, some "Nuggets" type gems. Will they be there?

In the meantime, The Turtles are starting to pop in. A good 60s singles band will alwys not get rejected/skipped in this experiment.

Alos getting the inevitable Beatles/Beach Boys tandem, but not really in quantity. Yet. Fingers crossed.

Anyways - sound quality? This is transistor radio/jukebox 45 music. What kind of sound quality is there to worry about? And for the more serious/focused/intentioned listening, hey, that's not what I;m looking at my phone to provide.

[Scott Dolan]

I hate USB; if you want to go to line for audio you need an interface; I want to stay digital for remastering purposes; so I would really rather just have some kind of hdmi-like line connection, which does not exist for MAC -

OK, I admit I'm completely confused. But, I'll bite.

What is the difference between the zeroes and ones transmitted via USB vs the zeroes and ones transmitted via HDMI?

:?

[psu_13]

The ones in the HDMI cable are also subject to HDCP.

USB can be annoying if you want long cable runs and no one seems to be able to make the power over USB reliable. But I see no reason why it's not sufficient to feed a DAC. Personally though, I use AirPlay.

[AllenLowe]

the USB, in Scott's prior scenario, is being converted to analog for listening purposes; in my scenario, for all the mastering work I do - I want a digitial signal out to stay in the digital domain to master to a 2 track source - these days I am mastering to CDR through a digital input. So I want digital to digital; only way to do that through USB is with a USB interface that has a digital output ($300). So it pains me to have already invested in this expensive MAC and then to need to use an interface to preserve it's digitality (a word I just made up).

I think that's where we are at cross puposes; mine is not just for listening but for re-mastering.

either way it is dumb for MAC to exist without a digital output.

Edited July 24, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Scott Dolan]

This entire conversation has crossed over into the surreal.

I guess we're all using "USB" in very different ways.

A USB cable carries a digital signal. It doesn't change the signal to analog.

If you connect a USB cable to a Mac, or any other computer for that matter, it carries that digital signal to the end. It only gets converted by whatever DAC source it is plugged into.

Color me extremely confused by everything you and psu are stating here.

Does a TOSlink cable also convert the signal it is carrying to analog?! If so, that's the most magical cable on the face of the planet...

Edited July 24, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[Shawn]

The Mac Mini (which is what I have) uses HDMI to output digital stereo & multichannel audio. Here are the specs from Apple's support page.

Which type of audio works with Macs using HDMI?

Apple supports 8-channel, 24-bit audio at 192kHz, Dolby Surround 5.1, and traditional stereo output.

http://www.apple.com/mac-mini/

Edited July 24, 2014 by Shawn