Horace Silver: unique tracks and sidemen

[Rooster_Ties]

Any evidence (I know, none recorded that anyone knows of) that Tyrone Washington played in Silver's band on any "Jody Grind"-era live gigs? -- with (or even without) Woody Shaw?

Have always hoped a recording would surface (or of Tyrone and Woody in the Jazz Messengers, shortly thereafter).

One can always dream, right?

Edited June 21, 2014 by Rooster_Ties

[Mark Stryker]

Tyrone replaced Joe Henderson in the band. Horace wrote about this in his autobiography, beginning on page 113. Spoiler alert: It doesn't end well. http://books.google.com/books?id=_7nzUPUNvg8C&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=tyrone+washington+and+horace+silver&source=bl&ots=TvtkQLRQP_&sig=20gN39aeGDjuCfjHKqY3UWQuXqA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hc2lU_zFLtikyATOmIK4CA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=tyrone%20washington%20and%20horace%20silver&f=false

Edited June 21, 2014 by Mark Stryker

[JCR1992]

Hello everyone I'm new to this site. Horace Silver was my favorite pianist so i was very saddened to hear about his passing. I have nearly every album of his except for the recordings on his own label, Silveto. I was wondering if anybody could give feedback about how those albums were. I believe he released 5 or 6 on his record label. I'm only 22 years old so much of this great music was before my time.

As for unique tracks by Horace, I love "I Want You" from his Hardbop Grandpop album. I am also a big fan of "Roccus" from the Lee Morgan Indeed album. I would have loved for him to record this with his own quintet. Another tune that has always been one of my favorites is "Down and Out" on the You Gotta Take A Little Love LP. I'm kind of surprised that tune is not brought up more.

[paul secor]

Welcome to Organissimo.

[kh1958]

Spirtiualizing the Senses (LP)--A very nice instrumental sextet date, with Eddie Harris and Ralph Moore on tenor saxophones, Bobby Shew on trumpet, Bob Maize on bass, and Carl Burnett on drums.

LIve 1964 (LP), with Joe Henderson, Carmell Jones, Teddy Smith and Roger Humphries at The Cork and Bib.

The Natives Are Restless Tonight (CD), with Joe Henderson, Woody Shaw or Carmell Jones, Larry Ridley or Teddy Smith, Roger Humphries. Live recordings from the Half Note, 1965-66.

The above three are the Silveto/Emerald recordings worth seeking out.

There is also There is No Need to Struggle and Music to Ease Your Disease. While the group's appear strong, these are vocal albums featuring Horace's self-improvement oriented lyrics. These two recordings are unlistenable.

Edited June 23, 2014 by kh1958

[JSngry]

I'll have to disagree with "unlistenable"...great bands, the tunes are still cool (and on Music To Ease Your Disease, we get the return of Andy Bey). the only "problem" is that, yes, the lyrics are all the way into Horace's self-help bag, and they are expressed rather...simply, let's put it that way.. But if you don't listen to the words, all you hear is a voice singing these cool Horace Silver songs (and when that voice is Andy Bey, extra cool!), and then Eddie Harris or Junior Cook or Clark Terry or somebody starts soloing, and oh, ok, this is cool.

So I would say listenable, pleasurable, even, but caveats aplenty about the lyrics.

Having said all that, though, I do think that Silver "n Strings was the apex of his determined movement foreward as a composer. Much fine work after that, but...

[JCR1992]

Welcome to Organissimo.

Thank you Paul!

[JCR1992]

Spirtiualizing the Senses (LP)--A very nice instrumental sextet date, with Eddie Harris and Ralph Moore on tenor saxophones, Bobby Shew on trumpet, Bob Maize on bass, and Carl Burnett on drums.

LIve 1964 (LP), with Joe Henderson, Carmell Jones, Teddy Smith and Roger Humphries at The Cork and Bib.

The Natives Are Restless Tonight (CD), with Joe Henderson, Woody Shaw or Carmell Jones, Larry Ridley or Teddy Smith, Roger Humphries. Live recordings from the Half Note, 1965-66.

The above three are the Silveto/Emerald recordings worth seeking out.

There is also There is No Need to Struggle and Music to Ease Your Disease. While the group's appear strong, these are vocal albums featuring Horace's self-improvement oriented lyrics. These two recordings are unlistenable.

Ok great. I'm hoping now that Horace has passed maybe all the music on his label will be released. I have the Natives are Restless CD but just under the title Re-Entry. It says its through his Silveto Label. I enjoyed that CD very much. Yeah I'm not too much of a fan of Horace's preachy lyrics. I thought the best albums of his with vocals were Rockin' with Rachmaninoff, It's Got to be Funky, and Pencil Packin' Papa. Thank you for the insight on the best albums on his label!

[JCR1992]

I'll have to disagree with "unlistenable"...great bands, the tunes are still cool (and on Music To Ease Your Disease, we get the return of Andy Bey). the only "problem" is that, yes, the lyrics are all the way into Horace's self-help bag, and they are expressed rather...simply, let's put it that way.. But if you don't listen to the words, all you hear is a voice singing these cool Horace Silver songs (and when that voice is Andy Bey, extra cool!), and then Eddie Harris or Junior Cook or Clark Terry or somebody starts soloing, and oh, ok, this is cool.

So I would say listenable, pleasurable, even, but caveats aplenty about the lyrics.

Having said all that, though, I do think that Silver "n Strings was the apex of his determined movement foreward as a composer. Much fine work after that, but...

So the tunes on this album seem like they have better instrumentation than the United States of Mind Trilogy but the same cheesy lyrics. Is that a correct assumption? Does every tune have a vocal performance?

[kh1958]

I'll have to disagree with "unlistenable"...great bands, the tunes are still cool (and on Music To Ease Your Disease, we get the return of Andy Bey). the only "problem" is that, yes, the lyrics are all the way into Horace's self-help bag, and they are expressed rather...simply, let's put it that way.. But if you don't listen to the words, all you hear is a voice singing these cool Horace Silver songs (and when that voice is Andy Bey, extra cool!), and then Eddie Harris or Junior Cook or Clark Terry or somebody starts soloing, and oh, ok, this is cool.

So I would say listenable, pleasurable, even, but caveats aplenty about the lyrics.

Having said all that, though, I do think that Silver "n Strings was the apex of his determined movement foreward as a composer. Much fine work after that, but...

I guess I don't much care for Andy Bey. The third time Horace Silver played at the Caravan of Dreams, he had Andy Bey with him, which completely changed the group dynamic; it was not my cup of tea.

[T.D.]

...As for unique tracks by Horace, I love "I Want You" from his Hardbop Grandpop album. I am also a big fan of "Roccus" from the Lee Morgan Indeed album. I would have loved for him to record this with his own quintet...

Agreed on "Roccus". There are also two quartet (as, p, b, d) takes of this tune on the Lou Donaldson "Quartet, Quintet, Sextet" album.

[JCR1992]

...As for unique tracks by Horace, I love "I Want You" from his Hardbop Grandpop album. I am also a big fan of "Roccus" from the Lee Morgan Indeed album. I would have loved for him to record this with his own quintet...

Agreed on "Roccus". There are also two quartet (as, p, b, d) takes of this tune on the Lou Donaldson "Quartet, Quintet, Sextet" album.

Yes I've heard one of the takes from the Lou Donaldson recordings. I'm not sure which one it was but it was pretty good.

[sgcim]

I did a search on the guitarist in the United States of Mind, RR, and it seems he passed last year in Fla., after being thrown from his wife's car.

For some reason, he was on the back of the car while it was moving(?). They said it was under investigation...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'll have to disagree with "unlistenable"...great bands, the tunes are still cool (and on Music To Ease Your Disease, we get the return of Andy Bey). the only "problem" is that, yes, the lyrics are all the way into Horace's self-help bag, and they are expressed rather...simply, let's put it that way.. But if you don't listen to the words, all you hear is a voice singing these cool Horace Silver songs (and when that voice is Andy Bey, extra cool!), and then Eddie Harris or Junior Cook or Clark Terry or somebody starts soloing, and oh, ok, this is cool.

So I would say listenable, pleasurable, even, but caveats aplenty about the lyrics.

Having said all that, though, I do think that Silver "n Strings was the apex of his determined movement foreward as a composer. Much fine work after that, but...

I guess I don't much care for Andy Bey. The third time Horace Silver played at the Caravan of Dreams, he had Andy Bey with him, which completely changed the group dynamic; it was not my cup of tea.

I agree about Andy Bey. I saw him in Newark, NJ in 1990 and he was kind of plastic - just sitting there at the piano and singing in that kind of personality-less voice. I didn't get ANYTHING either coming my way or inviting me to go his way.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

'Serenade to a soul sister' not only has Turrentine and Tolliver on side 1, but also Benny Maupin and Billy Cobham on side 2.

I love the album but I wish each band had made a whole LP

MG

[JSngry]

Well, with You Gotta Take A Little Love, you do get Maupin & Cobham for an entire LP, but not Tolliver.

No living in a perfect world, I guess...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I've got that album and hadn't noticed that. Side 2 of 'Serenade to a soul sister' is marvellously clear and straightforward. I found 'Take a little love' kinda muddy, so I never thought much about the soloists.

Will give this one a listen again soon.

MG

[JSngry]

Not sure that this has been mentioned before, but here's a variant on the You Got To...band, with Bill Hardman on trumpet. Cobham is much more...assertive than he was on the studio date. You can decide for yourself whether or not that's a good thing, but either way, one more indication that Pandora's box had been opened, and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put them back in the bottle again.

I really dig both Maupin & Hardman here, for totally different reasons. It seems like neither is really interested in what the other is doing, even remotely, but here they are on the same gig, so, hey, gig it is.

And Horace? Hey, Horace ended up using Michael Brecker, Bob Berg, Larry Schnieder, Ralph Moore, Ron Bridgewater, definitley NOT Benny Maupin. Horace wanted a certain sound, period, experiment on somebody else's gig, ideally your own, if you can do that. But for tonight, we have Bill Hardman & Bennie Maupin, so this is the gig. Right now.

= this is life, that's what it is. It ain't very seldom ever clean, best efforts to the contrary. And Elvin has Joe Farrell!

Jesus, Elvin and Jimmy Garrison. Win, always.

[soulpope]

I really dig both Maupin & Hardman here, for totally different reasons. It seems like neither is really interested in what the other is doing, even remotely, but here they are on the same gig, so, hey, gig it is.

And Horace? Hey, Horace ended up using Michael Brecker, Bob Berg, Larry Schnieder, Ralph Moore, Ron Bridgewater, definitley NOT Benny Maupin. Horace wanted a certain sound, period, experiment on somebody else's gig, ideally your own, if you can do that. But for tonight, we have Bill Hardman & Bennie Maupin, so this is the gig. Right now.

= this is life, that's what it is. It ain't very seldom ever clean, best efforts to the contrary. And Elvin has Joe Farrell!

Jesus, Elvin and Jimmy Garrison. Win, always.

Great show(s) for sure.....

Edited July 11, 2014 by soulpope

[danasgoodstuff]

I thought the Hardman & Maupin edition Horace Silver stuff on youtube was just a nice contrast; nothing more, nothing less.

[danasgoodstuff]

What if Joe F had joined Miles instead of Grossman &/or Leibman? Same difference, or not?

[Clunky]

Live 64 - is excellent. Sound a little dusty but good enough

[JSngry]

What if Joe F had joined Miles instead of Grossman &/or Leibman? Same difference, or not?

Not really...Farrell was in a different place as far as "vision" goes, I think. Grossman/Liebman were, at that time, pretty much into getting as far into Tranemath as possible as quickly as possible, full speed "ahead", no looking back, whereas Farrell, although also into doing the Tranemath, was at heart such a confirmed "hard bopper" that I don't see it. To say nothing of being at a different place in his career path as the two younger guys.

What would have seemed more "logical" to me would have been for Horace & Elvin to have swapped tenor players on that gig. But then again, Elvin almost always used a very specific type of tenorist in his bands, and Farrell was more of that type that Maupin. Still, in 1968, I don't know how much that mold would have been hardened...

[danasgoodstuff]

What if Joe F had joined Miles instead of Grossman &/or Leibman? Same difference, or not?

Not really...Farrell was in a different place as far as "vision" goes, I think. Grossman/Liebman were, at that time, pretty much into getting as far into Tranemath as possible as quickly as possible, full speed "ahead", no looking back, whereas Farrell, although also into doing the Tranemath, was at heart such a confirmed "hard bopper" that I don't see it. To say nothing of being at a different place in his career path as the two younger guys.

What would have seemed more "logical" to me would have been for Horace & Elvin to have swapped tenor players on that gig. But then again, Elvin almost always used a very specific type of tenorist in his bands, and Farrell was more of that type that Maupin. Still, in 1968, I don't know how much that mold would have been hardened...

makes sense, thanks