Ginger Baker on Max Roach

[mjzee]

Another great little interview with Marc Myers. It begins:

All of the guys in my gang in the early 1950s listened to jazz. I was 14 then, and every day after school we'd go to a record store in Eltham in South East London. Back then they'd let you listen to the latest records in soundproof booths. One day I was going through new albums and came across "Quintet of the Year." That record changed me, particularly the song "A Night in Tunisia."

More here:

WSJ

(or Google the article's title: Ginger Baker on the Album That Sent Him Toward Superstardom)

[BFrank]

Going to see him tonight. Should be interesting.

[JSngry]

[sgcim]

The first question I ask drummers I work with nowadays, since seeing "Beware of Mr. Baker", is what they think of GB as a jazz drummer.

A big band, Buddy Rich-type drummer said words to the effect of, "Get the fuck outta here."

A bebop drummer, who's more open-minded, considered it for a few minutes, but wound up saying GTFOH, also.

However, I did a gig with the great Italian drummer, Giampaolo Biagi, who was in Europe when Baker was playing jazz, and he defended Baker's rep as a jazz drummer against the condemnation of some older musicians.

He said Ginger stood up very well in his drum battles with Max Roach, Elvin Jones and Art Blakey.

[ArtSalt]

He's always struck me as an intriguing character, relocating to Lagos in Nigeria in the early 70s, seems quite mad now, doesn't it?

The other rock 'n roll drummer of interest is Charlie Watts who has a day job with The Stones for three months of the year, then he's digging jazz for the rest of it. Not bad.

[sidewinder]

Record shop at Eltham in South London - Dave Carey's Swing Shop?

[kh1958]

He's always struck me as an intriguing character, relocating to Lagos in Nigeria in the early 70s, seems quite mad now, doesn't it?

The other rock 'n roll drummer of interest is Charlie Watts who has a day job with The Stones for three months of the year, then he's digging jazz for the rest of it. Not bad.

Not really, the good rock music was in West Africa.

[sgcim]

He's always struck me as an intriguing character, relocating to Lagos in Nigeria in the early 70s, seems quite mad now, doesn't it?

The other rock 'n roll drummer of interest is Charlie Watts who has a day job with The Stones for three months of the year, then he's digging jazz for the rest of it. Not bad.

That reminds me that when one of the musicians tried to compare Charlie Watts' jazz playing with Ginger Baker's, Giampaolo gave a GTFOH reaction to the comparison.

Not in the same league...

[BFrank]

I saw Ginger last night. He seemed quite frail and had to be helped on and off the stage, and also appears to have respiratory problems. But once the music started he didn't seem impaired at all. Oddly, when he came out for an encore tune, he was smoking (!). He opened with Wayne's "Footprints" and threw in a Monk tune, among several originals.

I wouldn't want to compare him to any other drummers - jazz or otherwise. I would say that his unique style is somewhere between jazz and rock. He has a very good sense of propulsion and swing, which works well with his music.

BTW, his between-tune comments were very funny.

Pee Wee Ellis on sax, and Alex Dankworth (son of Cleo Laine and John Dankworth) on bass.

Edited June 15, 2014 by BFrank

[sgcim]

Cool, thanks for the report!

No keyboard or guitar?

Do you remember any of his comments?

[paul secor]

He's always struck me as an intriguing character, relocating to Lagos in Nigeria in the early 70s, seems quite mad now, doesn't it?

The other rock 'n roll drummer of interest is Charlie Watts who has a day job with The Stones for three months of the year, then he's digging jazz for the rest of it. Not bad.

That reminds me that when one of the musicians tried to compare Charlie Watts' jazz playing with Ginger Baker's, Giampaolo gave a GTFOH reaction to the comparison.

Not in the same league...

I've never heard Charlie Watts play jazz, so I can't comment. As far as playing rock, I'll take Charlie Watts any day.

[jazzbo]

GTFOOH

[paul secor]

Nope. I'll hang around and stick with my opinion.

[BFrank]

Cool, thanks for the report!

No keyboard or guitar?

Do you remember any of his comments?

Sorry, can't remember anything in particular.

Just bass, sax, congas/percussion and drums.

[mikeweil]

I remember viewing that drum battle with Blakey when it was broadcast on German TV. Baker was the clear winner - while Blakey was throwing stock patterns from his standard repertoire at Baker with no relation to what his partner had just played, Baker always picked those up and transformed them into something new, was much more creative. That's the basis for my respect for Ginger - he was not just some rock drummer pulling out licks.

[clifford_thornton]

Ginger Baker was perfect for the contexts he was in. Same with Charlie Watts. Sunny Murray wasn't the drummer for Jackie McLean, but he certainly was for Albert Ayler. The right combination of players for the moment is what's crucial.

[JSngry]

re: Baker "vs" Blakey - I thought that Baker was effectively (and probably well-intentioned enough) cloddy, but while he was struggling to walk upright (or celebrating being graceful while not quite doing so), Blakey was dancing. Not so much anything to do with "ability" as concept, feel, basic body-mind connection.

Then again, the world where I really cared how Ginger Baker played is not one I've visited since 1970 or so. Too many/So many other drummers in too many/so many other musics, including "rock". Bought a used copy of the Atlantic album with Frisell & Haden just becuase it was there and cheap, and had a nice long appreciative yawn, like, ok, if ECM really sounded like a lot of people think it does, it would sound like this, then, so I understand.

Yes, effective, sincere, not without skill, but the cloddiness, I just can't get past the cloddiness. If that's the point, then I get it, and if it's not, then I can't get past it.

[clifford_thornton]

Right; I love Cream and Blind Faith aren't too shabby, but I wouldn't put the propulsion in those bands in the same league as, say, The Jazz Messengers! Pot, meet spoon.

Never listened to the trio disc w/ Frisell and Haden, but that's because a record with those two made at this point in time is of little interest.

[Steve Reynolds]

Right; I love Cream and Blind Faith aren't too shabby, but I wouldn't put the propulsion in those bands in the same league as, say, The Jazz Messengers! Pot, meet spoon.

Never listened to the trio disc w/ Frisell and Haden, but that's because a record with those two made at this point in time is of little interest.

Part of it is when I heard it. I heard Cream in 1977 as a 17 year old. The strong live tracks which for me are Crossroads, Spoonful, NSU, I'm So Glad, Deserted Cities of the Heart and maybe a couple of others, rock and groove in their way due to Baker and Bruce. Then again this was a 17 year old listening to what I thought was great rock music by musicians I had just discovered and realized that were looked at as rock gods. I was also listening to Hendrix, Traffic, Yes, Floyd - and then within a year the big one for me - King Crimson - so I was listening to the guys who I thought could play.

And I thought that as far as rock drummers, it was a short list for me then and maybe even today - Ginger Baker, Bill Bruford, John Bonham and later Stewart Copeland. I liked Mitchell and Moon - but they were too messy and they didn't have that crackle that my favorite guys above had.

So did Cream groove like Blakey et al on Free for All? Hell no but they rocked out and the best jams like the long ones on Spoonful and NSU were then and are now (in retrospect) powerful musical statements by three twentsomethings bringing it in way that had never been done before - and honesty - never since.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Steve Reynolds

[clifford_thornton]

See, that's why I think it's a fallacy to put Ginger Baker down for not being what he isn't, rather than digging him for what he is. Rare is the musician who can "do it all," more interesting to me the musician who can do what they do without equal.

[paul secor]

Yes, effective, sincere, not without skill, but the cloddiness, I just can't get past the cloddiness. If that's the point, then I get it, and if it's not, then I can't get past it.

You nailed it, Jim. Exactly my feelings (and the feeling that I get when I've heard him play) about Baker.

[mjzee]

I'm not sure that Blakey was that great. Powerful, true, but he could rush the beat, and didn't play that sensitively. He was a force of nature, but then so is Baker. I agree that the best of live Cream was amazing music, sui generis.

[JSngry]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I loved Cream when I was a kid, still find it very appealing as time/place material, and a little bit beyond, actually (but just a little). The Blind Faith album went nonstop at home for a few weeks when it came out, too, and Baker's drumming on "Can't Find My Way Home" still affects me.

But - it's still cloddy. Not in an awkward uncoordinated type way, just...cloddy. It's like, as I grew up and realized that there were a lot of different ways to move about in space, Baker seemed less and less relevant to the way I wanted to move.

I mean, Jesus, Hal Blaine swung a Ronettes record, a freakin' bubblegum piece of megalomaniac psychodrama. It still danced with a certain grace. Baker's just too...sorry, can't think of a better word than "cloddy" for it for me to fall in line with. Like that Garry Glitter beat that everybody gets into at ball games. Yeah, I can move to it, and will, but will I live there? Uh...probably not. Definitely not, who are we kidding? And that's what Ginger Baker feels like at root to me - a more limb-independent version of that Gary Glitter beat. No, it's the other way around - that's what Garry Glittter sounds like to me - a greatly simplified Ginger Baker feel. But they move the same fundamental way in their space, they really do.

So, it's not really dislike, it's definitely not disrespect, it's just...can't hold on to everything in equal measure, and that whole thing is one I let go of a large part of without any great difficulty.

Gald to see he's playing with Pee Wee Ellis, though. There's a guy...

[Steve Reynolds]

All good points above

Now we gotta get some people here listening to Jaki Leibezeit on drums and Holger Czukay on bass with Can from 68-72.

Doesn't swing but no one EVER rocked a groove like Can. Add in Irwin Schmidt's magical sounds on analogue electric whatever keyboards and Michael Karoli's guitar - and even without Malcolm or Damo...

And this band's magic is on the studio records - Monster Movie, Ege Bamyasi, Future Days, Soundtracks and of course the greatest of them all, the epic recording Tago Mago.

Not clunky or cloddy there, Jim!!

Mother Sky, baby

[Leeway]

Have to disagree on Keith Moon. Saw him a couple of times back in the day, and the guy was electric. Yeah, they did a lot of crazy shit onstage (and off), can't talk about his technique or even if he had any, but Keith created tremendous energy, tremendous vitality. Pure rock and roll. Probably where I got my taste for high-energy music.

One other guy I would mention, Mitch Mitchell, probably not a great drummer by most standards, but again, watching him with Hendrix was so tasty! That was the right place and time for him and the results were sterling.

As for Ginger Baker, I've always felt he gave a certain monumental quality to rock, drumming that added power and depth to the music. Something monolithic about his sound. It was like tribal tom-toms, and back then we were all tribal.