Ageing audience for jazz?

[Larry Kart]

but more importantly, those who embrace Brittany Spears as a prime example of pop complexity really expose the falseness of their arguments and the shallowness of their intellect (I don't mean you but those you are quoting); it is a classic academic exercise to take mediocrity and then rationalize it for 'context' and thus try to elevate it. This is something, too, of a reverse snobbery, which seems to posit that all this pop music cannot make it on its own two legs but needs havy intellectual artillery support. Which is really, really, silly.

On a related note, anyone who somehow read that Britney Spears was being held up as a prime example of pop complexity is also showing the shallowness of their intellect. Or at least horrendous reading comprehension.

Though, if someone did, I'd be overjoyed if you could quote it, or direct to the particular post.

It was Hot Ptah, mentioning some people he knows but doesn't agree with:

"I know some very intelligent people who know theater, literature and visual arts at a sophisticated level far above mine, who totally disagree with this. I have had discussions with them about this subject. They believe that the artistry required to produce compelling vocal pop hits far exceeds the ability to improvise instrumentally, at any level of improvisational skill. To them, improvised instrumental music is "half-music", an easy out in which the musical artist does not try particularly hard, and stops before completing their musical work of art. To them, a Spears hit, or a Beatles hit, or a Motown hit from 1965, or a Frank Sinatra hit from 1955, is a far greater artistic achievement than any jazz instrumental ever. They speak articulately and intelligently about this.

"I don't agree with them, but it is another point of view, which jazz lovers typically do not even consider."

[Scott Dolan]

but more importantly, those who embrace Brittany Spears as a prime example of pop complexity really expose the falseness of their arguments and the shallowness of their intellect (I don't mean you but those you are quoting); it is a classic academic exercise to take mediocrity and then rationalize it for 'context' and thus try to elevate it. This is something, too, of a reverse snobbery, which seems to posit that all this pop music cannot make it on its own two legs but needs havy intellectual artillery support. Which is really, really, silly.

On a related note, anyone who somehow read that Britney Spears was being held up as a prime example of pop complexity is also showing the shallowness of their intellect. Or at least horrendous reading comprehension.

Though, if someone did, I'd be overjoyed if you could quote it, or direct to the particular post.

It was Hot Ptah, mentioning some people he knows but doesn't agree with:

"I know some very intelligent people who know theater, literature and visual arts at a sophisticated level far above mine, who totally disagree with this. I have had discussions with them about this subject. They believe that the artistry required to produce compelling vocal pop hits far exceeds the ability to improvise instrumentally, at any level of improvisational skill. To them, improvised instrumental music is "half-music", an easy out in which the musical artist does not try particularly hard, and stops before completing their musical work of art. To them, a Spears hit, or a Beatles hit, or a Motown hit from 1965, or a Frank Sinatra hit from 1955, is a far greater artistic achievement than any jazz instrumental ever. They speak articulately and intelligently about this.

"I don't agree with them, but it is another point of view, which jazz lovers typically do not even consider."

Not sure that's correct, as nothing was mentioned there about complexity. But, I could be wrong. There's a first for everything.

[AllenLowe]

hmmmm....the alt country movement is very interesting but, to me, unsatisfying because, at the end of the day, they don't seem to really have challenged the basic techniques and assumptions of older country music; I tried, myself, once with very limited distribution, and I think the alt country writing is a problem (lack of deep literacy) and the music (lack of familiarity with extended instrumental techniques).

this gives me some incentive. Chadbourne has worked in this direction, as has Bill Frisell (with disastrously bad results); Ribot understands what has to be done. But this is, indeed, another whole topic.

[Scott Dolan]

We have a different reaction to hearing the same radio songs, it appears. Nothing unusual about that. However, I do not know why we have to put a value judgment on music we just plain don't like. My dad would call Creedence Clearwater Revival's best songs "that garbage" when they came on the radio in the 1969-70 time period. I liked them. He didn't. I always wondered why he couldn't say, "I don't like this" instead of "that garbage."

I like the outlaw country too, at least some of it.

It's semantics really, isn't it? Perhaps people could find softer words, but what's the sense? The sentiment is the same.

I've been told by many that things I like are garbage, or crap, or worthless. Whatever. I personally prefer the most non-ambiguous language one can muster.

hmmmm....the alt country movement is very interesting but, to me, unsatisfying because, at the end of the day, they don't seem to really have challenged the basic techniques and assumptions of older country music; I tried, myself, once with very limited distribution, and I think the alt country writing is a problem (lack of deep literacy) and the music (lack of familiarity with extended instrumental techniques).

this gives me some incentive. Chadbourne has worked in this direction, as has Bill Frisell (with disastrously bad results); Ribot understands what has to be done. But this is, indeed, another whole topic.

I'm not sure you can call Alt. Country a "movement" really. It's been around in acknowledged fashion since the 60's, and many argue it goes all the way back to the Carter Family in the 20's and 30's.

[AllenLowe]

well, I've heard it applied most directly to, let us call them, post-modernists like Wilco or Son Volt. I don't really think of anything that old (like the Carters) as alt, since the hillbilly mainstream was pretty complex (thinking 1920-1940).

Edited June 16, 2014 by AllenLowe

[A Lark Ascending]

Well, here I am just back from the Vortex (London); their monthly "mopomoso" improvised music slot.

Part One – Portfolio Improvisers:

Seth Bennett (bass) / Shaun Blezard (electronics) / Anton Hunter (guitar) / Rachel Musson (saxophone) / Shelly Knotts (electronics) / Julie Kjaer (saxophone / flute) led by Steve Beresford (piano)

Part Two – Three guitarists:

Arthur Bull (electric) / Pascal Marzan (classical) / John Russell (archtop)

And guess what, half or maybe a bit more of the audience were to my estimate in their 20s and 30s.

Good!

Wonder what would happen if you put the same concert on in Doncaster, King's Lynn or Okehampton.

I suspect the age of attendance in jazz concerts drops in proportion to the proximity of a major further education facility. There you have an audience educated into believing that they should seek out non-mainstream musics.

[Scott Dolan]

Allen, Uncle Tupelo did create a revival of sorts, I suppose. But it has been around and fairly constant since the 60's when Parsons introduced it to a more mainstream audience via his stint with The Byrds. I guess you could throw The Flying Burrito Brothers in there as well.

I don't really understand what you find musically lacking about it, though. It's a neo genre, but how much further can it be pushed musically before it becomes something else entirely?

It's like European improv. Some call it Jazz, but I hear no Jazz in it at all. It pushed things so far that it's really no longer part of the genre that helped influence it, IMO.

Besides, Alt Country draws from so many elements that it has moved the genre "forward"(?). Just give No Depression a listen. That's considered the Bible of modern Alt Country, but it more a Punk/Garage Rock album aside from the title track.

And let's not forget about the Lubbock and Bakersfield sounds. Those were, and are, a huge component of Alt Country. And those have been kicking since the 50's.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[Larry Kart]

but more importantly, those who embrace Brittany Spears as a prime example of pop complexity really expose the falseness of their arguments and the shallowness of their intellect (I don't mean you but those you are quoting); it is a classic academic exercise to take mediocrity and then rationalize it for 'context' and thus try to elevate it. This is something, too, of a reverse snobbery, which seems to posit that all this pop music cannot make it on its own two legs but needs havy intellectual artillery support. Which is really, really, silly.

On a related note, anyone who somehow read that Britney Spears was being held up as a prime example of pop complexity is also showing the shallowness of their intellect. Or at least horrendous reading comprehension.

Though, if someone did, I'd be overjoyed if you could quote it, or direct to the particular post.

It was Hot Ptah, mentioning some people he knows but doesn't agree with:

"I know some very intelligent people who know theater, literature and visual arts at a sophisticated level far above mine, who totally disagree with this. I have had discussions with them about this subject. They believe that the artistry required to produce compelling vocal pop hits far exceeds the ability to improvise instrumentally, at any level of improvisational skill. To them, improvised instrumental music is "half-music", an easy out in which the musical artist does not try particularly hard, and stops before completing their musical work of art. To them, a Spears hit, or a Beatles hit, or a Motown hit from 1965, or a Frank Sinatra hit from 1955, is a far greater artistic achievement than any jazz instrumental ever. They speak articulately and intelligently about this.

"I don't agree with them, but it is another point of view, which jazz lovers typically do not even consider."

Not sure that's correct, as nothing was mentioned there about complexity. But, I could be wrong. There's a first for everything.

No, the word 'complexity' did not appear there, but 'artistry' did, and ''improvised instrumental music' (e.g. jazz) was referred to as '"half-music", an easy out in which the musical artist does not try particularly hard, and stops before completing their musical work of art.'

[Scott Dolan]

Which is completely absurd, IMO.

And really, what does "stop before completing their musical work of art" even mean?

Is that what happens if Coltrane "take his damn horn out of his mouth" as Miles once instructed?

Edited June 16, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[Hot Ptah]

Which is completely absurd, IMO.

And really, what does "stop before completing their musical work of art" even mean?

I said that I did not agree with the people who said this. What they meant, is that to them, a musical work of art should be thoroughly composed, and contain a compelling, somewhat complicated melody, and interesting lyrics. To them, someone improvising off of chord changes, or a mode, is not really trying very hard to complete a total piece of music, and is taking a lazy way out, exhibiting some instrumental skill which is not particularly interesting or meritorious. To them, an improvised instrumental work is akin to a movie script which has not been filmed yet--there are so many aspects to the completed film which still need to be worked on.

As I said in my original post, I do not agree with this. I bring it up only to comment that the view of some jazz lovers, that a jazz instrumental improvisation is the absolute pinnacle of all music, is not a universally shared view.

[Scott Dolan]

Which is completely absurd, IMO.

And really, what does "stop before completing their musical work of art" even mean?

I said that I did not agree with the people who said this. What they meant, is that to them, a musical work of art should be thoroughly composed, and contain a compelling, somewhat complicated melody, and interesting lyrics. To them, someone improvising off of chord changes, or a mode, is not really trying very hard to complete a total piece of music, and is taking a lazy way out, exhibiting some instrumental skill which is not particularly interesting or meritorious. To them, an improvised instrumental work is akin to a movie script which has not been filmed yet--there are so many aspects to the completed film which still need to be worked on.

As I said in my original post, I do not agree with this. I bring it up only to comment that the view of some jazz lovers, that a jazz instrumental improvisation is the absolute pinnacle of all music, is not a universally shared view.

Well, of course not.

Is there such a thing as a universally shared view?

At the end of the day I don't expect anyone to agree with me on any subject. If they do, hey, bonus!

Kinda reminds me of a time I played Coltrane's First Meditation for a buddy of mine. When it was over he asked, "can we listen to some real music now?"

BTW, are the folks you've been referencing Stanley and Wynton?

[AllenLowe]

to me Parsons is another disappointment; him and what's-her-name, drawing a blank; bland; and I guess I don't think of any of that as alt.country because, to my knowledge, the alt.country 'movement,'as specifically labeled, was much later. Parsons, like the Burritos, the Submarine Band, Poco, etc, was really what we called country rock, at least at the time.

as for the instrumental problem; too consonant. Same phrases are really played today that were played 70 years ago; they need to listen to Sonny Sharrock, for one. I also did a piece on one of my earlier albums in which I tried to apply the lessons of Tristano to country guitar. It needs not just chromatics but a whole new sense of harmony.

[Scott Dolan]

Yeah, but Allen Country Rock falls under the umbrella of Alt Country.

Alt Country is the primary genre. Like Jazz, or Rock. And like those two it has a ton of sub genres.

Hell, most Alt Country today IS Country Rock. And if you take the examples of Son Volt and early Wilco, how do you classify them? You pretty much have to do it song by song.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

as for the instrumental problem; too consonant. Same phrases are really played today that were played 70 years ago; they need to listen to Sonny Sharrock, for one. I also did a piece on one of my earlier albums in which I tried to apply the lessons of Tristano to country guitar. It needs not just chromatics but a whole new sense of harmony.

Why? Hoo sez?

"It needs not just chromatics but a whole new sense of harmony" appears to be an arrogant assertion with nothing behind it - apparently just another expert trying to sell something cheap. When did you buy the controlling interest that enables you to dictate to the musicians and audiences of a whole genre of music?

Or are you saying that, in order for you to enjoy it, chromatics and a whole new sense of harmony would have to be injected?

MG

[AllenLowe]

well, somebody's gotta do it, or at least say it; just like the swing era had come to the end of its creative rope, country music instrumentalism suffers from repetition, the same music gestures repeated ad nauseum.

is it arrogant to say, ''the United States needs national health insurance" ? or, "we need an economy based on equitable distribution of wealth" ?

those statements are just as broad and sweeping. And just like mine, they make perfect sense.

alt country needs a whole new instrumental approach, not so I can enjoy it, but in order for it to re-plenish itself and not hang with its own rope.

Edited June 16, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Hot Ptah]

Which is completely absurd, IMO.

And really, what does "stop before completing their musical work of art" even mean?

I said that I did not agree with the people who said this. What they meant, is that to them, a musical work of art should be thoroughly composed, and contain a compelling, somewhat complicated melody, and interesting lyrics. To them, someone improvising off of chord changes, or a mode, is not really trying very hard to complete a total piece of music, and is taking a lazy way out, exhibiting some instrumental skill which is not particularly interesting or meritorious. To them, an improvised instrumental work is akin to a movie script which has not been filmed yet--there are so many aspects to the completed film which still need to be worked on.

As I said in my original post, I do not agree with this. I bring it up only to comment that the view of some jazz lovers, that a jazz instrumental improvisation is the absolute pinnacle of all music, is not a universally shared view.

Well, of course not.

Is there such a thing as a universally shared view?

At the end of the day I don't expect anyone to agree with me on any subject. If they do, hey, bonus!

Kinda reminds me of a time I played Coltrane's First Meditation for a buddy of mine. When it was over he asked, "can we listen to some real music now?"

BTW, are the folks you've been referencing Stanley and Wynton?

No, they have nothing to do with Stanley and Wynton, nor have they ever heard of Stanley and Wynton, I would imagine.

[Scott Dolan]

well, somebody's gotta do it, or at least say it; just like the swing era had come to the end of its creative rope, country music instrumentalism suffers from repetition, the same music gestures repeated ad nauseum.

alt country needs a whole new instrumental approach, not so I can enjoy it, but in order for it to re-plenish itself and not hang with its own rope.

I think you and MG are making equally salient points, but I have to ask exactly what you're getting at?

Swing essentially had a popularity shelf life of what, 20-25 years? Then it was overtaken by Bebop.

The main difference being that Alt Country has never enjoyed any substantial level of popularity. At least not on par with Swing. Taking that into consideration, how could it possibly "hang with its own rope"? It really has no level of popularity to retain/maintain, as it has a built-in niche audience.

Yet, I still think you're not looking at the bigger picture. That being that No Depression actually DID usher in a replenishment of the genre. Can you point out any acts prior to Uncle Tupelo who brought Punk/Garage Rock into the equation? They certainly broadened the genre as a whole, and to the point where it became almost impossible to accurately pinpoint what, exactly, Alt Country is. Is it Terry Allen and Joe Ely with the Lubbock sound? Is it Gram Parsons and Buck Owens with the Bakersfield sound? Uncle Tupelo with the Punk/Garage sound? Perhaps Drive-by Truckers and Steve Earle with the Southern Rock hybrid?

The answer to all of those is "yes".

If you could give me an example of what this whole new instrumental approach is, I'd really appreciate hearing it. I mean, didn't you mention before that others had tried with poor results?

It has somehow stayed relevant to its small but fierce fan base for the past 5 decades. Even you have to admit, that's a pretty impressive shelf life. The fact that you feel the genre was created by the neo-classicists (Uncle Tupelo splitting off into Son Volt and Wilco) may be the very thing that is tripping you up here? I dunno...

[Scott Dolan]

BTW, not that it's particularly important, I do readily acknowledge that Alt Country was basically a term coined in the 90's as a reaction to the crossover Nashville sound pioneered by cats like Garth Brooks/Brooks & Dunn/Confederate Railwood.

The Nashville sound was, and is, the complete antithesis of things like the Lubbock and Bakersfield sounds. Nashville represents the glitz and polish of manufactured stars who don't even write their own material, and the overly processed sound of their studio recordings. "Airbrushed" to perfection.

Alt Country took the opposite tack, embracing the low-fi and dirty sounds that they choose to emulate. But in the process, Alt Country became a big tent that adopted all of those that came before. Hank Williams Sr. would be considered Alt Country these days. As would Waylon Jennings and Johnny Cash.

Unlike any other genre, Alt Country has this weird retroactive inclusion thing going on.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[AllenLowe]

I actually haven't heard anyone do it exactly as I picture; for a few years now I have thought about doing so but have been delayed; it's on my project list, but the guitarist I normally use, and who may be the only one I know who can do it right, has disappeared.

on a 2007 cd I put out I did one piece - on guitar - which started to get at it; but I've stopped playing guitar due to hand issue.

Edited June 16, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Scott Dolan]

I actually haven't heard anyone do it exactly as I picture; for a few years now I have thought about doing so but have been delayed; it's on my project list, but the guitarist I normally use, and who may be the only one I know who can do it right, has disappeared.

on a 2007 cd I put out I did one piece - on guitar - which started to get at it; but I've stopped playing guitar due to hand issue.

When you get to it I'm really interested in hearing your take on the genre.

Now, you have expressed almost universal dismay with every Alt Country act we've discussed so far, so I have to ask, what Alt Country acts do you appreciate? It just seems like you're hostile to the genre in general, which makes it seem odd that you'd want to even bother with it as an artist.

Or do you simply think everyone else has just gotten it wrong?

Edited June 16, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[David Ayers]

Or do you simply think everyone else has just gotten it wrong?

Oh come on!

[Scott Dolan]

I'm obviously too forgiving for my own good...

[AllenLowe]

well, I think almost everyone does it - not exactly wrong, but too conservatively; it's like Marsalis thinking he is stretching the boundaries of jazz composition by throwing in a few dissonant passages -

I liked a group I heard once called The Waco Brothers; and I like Chadbourne. But almost all the rest, though I don't hate them (son volt, wilco) I find too limited in scope. There is more quirkiness and personality in Hank Williams, Left Frizzell, Buddy Jones, Jimmy Davis, the Delmores, Frank Hutchisen, Roy Head, and particularly in Jerry Lee Lewis' country performances; not to mention a lot of the Sun 1950s guys from Cash on; might as well go back to the originals, which have way more edge.

I also did some blues on my last CD which is meant to address the mediocrity of contemporary blues. Also did this on my 2007 cd; as a guitarist I think I was on to something but I just could not keep it going. I think Cliff Allen will attest to some of the things I tried.

I used, btw, Erin McKeown on my 2007 CD (Jews in Hell); though, I will add, I like some of the things Zappa and Chadbourne did with the country genre, I think both tend to be too much at the edge of parody. I genuinely love country music.

I will post a few clips when I am able, hopefully later this week.

Edited June 17, 2014 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

just, however, to point in the right direction, this is my answer to those who have made the blues into a non-entitiy:

https://soundcloud.com/allenlowe-1/bull-connor-2

[uli]

well, I think almost everyone does it - not exactly wrong, but too conservatively; it's like Marsalis thinking he is stretching the boundaries of jazz composition by throwing in a few dissonant passages -

I liked a group I heard once called The Waco Brothers; and I like Chadbourne. But almost all the rest, though I don't hate them (son volt, wilco) I find too limited in scope. There is more quirkiness and personality in Hank Williams, Left Frizzell, Buddy Jones, Jimmy Davis, the Delmores, Frank Hutchisen, Roy Head, and particularly in Jerry Lee Lewis' country performances; not to mention a lot of the Sun 1950s guys from Cash on; might as well go back to the originals, which have way more edge.

I also did some blues on my last CD which is meant to address the mediocrity of contemporary blues. Also did this on my 2007 cd; as a guitarist I think I was on to something but I just could not keep it going. I think Cliff Allen will attest to some of the things I tried.

I used, btw, Erin McKeown on my 2007 CD (Jews in Hell); though, I will add, I like some of the things Zappa and Chadbourne did with the country genre, I think both tend to be too much at the edge of parody. I genuinely love country music.

I will post a few clips when I am able, hopefully later this week.

what do you think about Frisell's twang?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIZMtPRMHKU