Coltrane and ballads

[paul secor]

Yeah, if Lees story has any merit he got the title of the tune with alternates wrong.

If you read Lees' writings, he got a lot of things wrong. (I guess I should say that I disagreed with a lot of what he wrote.)

[Milestones]

I guess it is true that ballads are usually a feature for one soloist primarily. Note how popular it was on Verve to have ballad medleys--three or four players would have relatively short features, each on a different song that segued together.

Otherwise you usually get one main player, but with a shorter spot for another--usually the pianist.

One of my all-time favorite ballads, though, is "Duke Ellington's Sound of Love," with lengthy solos by George Adams and Don Pullen (possibly my favorite piano solo ever), plus a longish solo by Mingus himself.

[Guy Berger]

. It also seems to me that his best ballads are not romantically grounded but mystically infused.

Strongly disagree. "Naima". "In a Sentimental Mood". "I Want to Talk About You"!!!!

[Guy Berger]

...It also seems to me that his best ballads are not romantically grounded but mystically infused.

I'm not sure I follow you completely. From my own modest collection of his albums, I really enjoy "Like Someone in Love" from Lush Life, "In a Sentimental Mood" from the Duke Ellington album and of course "Blue in Green" for example, and count them amongst the best of his ballad playing (there is a lot of Coltrane material that I haven't heard though especially late Coltrane). Would you say that those are "mystically infused"? How about "Naima"?

I would definitely call the intense and intensely beautiful material from 1965 like Dear Lord, Dearly Beloved, and certain pieces from First Meditations for example mystically infused ballads. They probably wouldn't qualify as ballads by definition. These pieces are profound.

Kind of what erwbol said. I think "Naima" qualifies, the others don't. (I'm talking about Coltrane leader dates, but I assume you are referring to "Blue in Green" on "Kind of Blue." Having Miles on the recording changes the context). Perhaps you rate them more highly than I do. My larger point is that when Coltrane was able to get out of the "me and thee" of Tin Pan Alley ballads and into some larger sphere of feeling or connectedness, then his music is more powerful. "I love you" as opposed to "a love supreme." To me, handing Coltrane a stack of well-worn ballads was insulting, and a cash grab. Did someone tell Picasso, "Pablo baby, all these cube things, with womens' heads on sideways," just not what people are asking for. Here, paint some nice boats on a lake or something, people can hang over their sofas." Although well-made, according to the conventional standards, it was retrogressive to his particular artistry.

I guess it's all a matter of taste, but it seems odd to downgrade a whole lot of romantically motivated output in the history of art. Picasso painted his lovers, FWIW.

2) There is much to admire in the traditional ballads found mainly on Prestige. Trane surely loved this material to play it so well. I also read somewhere that Trane knew virtually everything in the Great American Songbook. If Trane and his group had never before played (together) the songs on the Ballads record (Impulse), I'm sure they knew them; these are not obscure standards. As with others, I would think, my appreciation of Ballads has grown with each repeated listen.

One thing that's worth mentioning is that there's a strong common thread running through his more traditional ballad interpretations and the more adventurous ballad style that he developed during the 1960s. On the Ballads album specifically, "You Know What Love Is" seems to bridge these two approaches.

Second thing - I'm a little surprised that people are classifyng "Dear Lord" with the later ballads. Despite the relatively late recording date I always thought this was a fairly traditional (but beautiful!) performance.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Guy

[king ubu]

I don't see that romanticism v. mysticism thing either ... I mean doesn't it boil down to love anyway? If mysticism or whatever religious or spiritual thing remains theoretical or ideological, I don't need it at all, I look at it and throw it in the garbage can (the one on top of which Dizzy wrote "A Night in Tunisia", I bet) ... when it's real, gets into life and down to earth, isn't love what it's all about? And doesn't love come in different shapes and colours? Whoever the "me and you" are, it's the essence. Why separate and divide when it belongs together? Does that sound like I'm a darn mysticist? Well, so be it

[ArtSalt]

Two points.

1) Yes, there is that mystical/spiritual quality in the later work. There is "Welcome," "Dear Lord," "Wise One," "Alabama," and many more. I mean, how does "Alabama" fit at all into the Tin Pan Alley type of ballad? These are great pieces, and a large part of what makes Coltrane a distinctively great artist.

2) There is much to admire in the traditional ballads found mainly on Prestige. Trane surely loved this material to play it so well. I also read somewhere that Trane knew virtually everything in the Great American Songbook. If Trane and his group had never before played (together) the songs on the Ballads record (Impulse), I'm sure they knew them; these are not obscure standards. As with others, I would think, my appreciation of Ballads has grown with each repeated listen.

On the strength of the above and other comments, I'm going to give the Impulse Ballads another go. As I am good boy I have the latest SHM Platinum CD and it still seems to me, to be his weakest album and the stereo separation is annoying too.

[mjzee]

It would be great if there were a mono Impulse release series.

[Milestones]

A love supreme....

[JSngry]

IIRC, The Gentle Side Of John Coltrane was a pretty big seller in LP form, and that was a posthumous assemblage. I know a lot of people who dug all of Trane who bought it just because it made such a splendid unified listening experience, on its own terms. Not Coltrane For Lovers or some such easiness, just deep, soulful, meaningful playing of "gentle" things.

I've never put the Ballads album top-tier on my Coltrane shelving system, but so many other ballads recorded around the same time are. And the side with Johnny Hartman, geez, if that doesn't bridge/obliterate the alleged romance/mystic divide, then shoot my booty, Rudy, and call me a cab, Calloway.

Or perhaps gentility is no longer valued as a sign of true strength these days. I don't know, I tend to stay home a lot these days, so what the kids do, they do without me.

[soulpope]

Or perhaps gentility is no longer valued as a sign of true strength these days. I don't know, I tend to stay home a lot these days, so what the kids do, they do without me.