Cannonball Adderley's Black Messiah

[MomsMobley]

Great band, great album, it's imperfections are virtuous etc, worth it for George Duke alone though there's LOTS more. Who was it who had bad experience with late '60s Zappa, Larry or Chuck or maybe both (or neither)? I find it nearly impossible to believe FZ was racist but re: Frank and AACM & related, I could maybe see ambitious composer's ego flaring up, like hey, I'm the post-Webern, Varese... In any event...

[jazzbo]

Sound is pretty good on the Dusty Groove release.

[LarryCurleyMoe]

I bought this recently. There is a lot of great music here. But I feel it doesn't hold together "as an album" very well And I'd like to hear more Cannonball soloing. When he does it's intense. Some GREAT clarinet by Alvin Batiste though...a MOFO on the instrument.

[JSngry]

..But I feel it doesn't hold together "as an album" very well

A fair enough point, but keep in mind that when it was released, you could easily play it in terms of 4 individual LP sides, not one continuous album. That was the way I heard it for many years, one side played over and over before going (or not) to another.

Maybe a consideration, maybe not.

[Leroy Bad]

I'll have to pick this one up. The last Cannonball album I bought was The Happy People, which is wasn't bad.

[Rooster_Ties]

I almost pulled the trigger on this in a Dusty Order last week, but spinning all I could find on-line from it (several full-length Youtube clips), I couldn't help but think the "wheat-to-chaff" ratio on this just didn't seem enough for me. Maybe someday, or if I could ever spin the whole thing first. I'll bet there's a solid single-album's worth of stuff in there, but a lot that I probably would always want to skip too.

[jazzbo]

Two new Cannon reissues from Dusty Groove label now available:

https://www.dustygroove.com/item/788179

https://www.dustygroove.com/item/788181

 

[ghost of miles]

On 4/28/2016 at 7:36 PM, jazzbo said:

Two new Cannon reissues from Dusty Groove label now available:

https://www.dustygroove.com/item/788179

https://www.dustygroove.com/item/788181

 

Just picked these up a few minutes ago at Landlocked here in Bloomington... will definitely be listening to them over the weekend.

[Late]

All three Cannonball reissues on the Dusty Groove label appear to now be out-of-print. That didn't take long! I put together a single disc (79 minutes) comp — with the objective of maximizing Cannonball solo space (apologies to Ernie Watts) — from two albums that goes like this:

1. The Black Messiah
2. The Steam Drill
3. The Chocolate Nuissance
4. Dr. Honouris Causa
5. Episode from The Music Came
6. Circumference
7. Pretty Paul
8. The Scene
9. The Brakes
10. Walk Tall

I wish I were better skilled at using editing software. That way I could merge applause as well as fade in and out in order to make this setlist more seamless. (I had to trim some of Cannonball's on-stage banter, but it makes for a tighter "album.")

The Black Messiah & The Legacy of Cannonball Adderley, by Nate Chinen & Alex Ariff

 

[felser]

A combo CD is a good idea, as both tohose titles are incredibly inconsistent.  OTOH, much love for this (and every) version of Zawinul's wonderful "Dr. Honoris Causa"!!!

[JSngry]

9 minutes ago, felser said:

A combo CD is a good idea, as both tohose titles are incredibly inconsistent. 

I'd make the case that their truest greatness lies in the "inconsistencies".

I mean, hell, (relatively) anybody can have a "great band", even a "progressive" one. But it takes a certain kind of genius to just not give even half a goddam and just go All Freaking In on damn near EVERYTHING. That's more than just "commerce", that's getting into social relevancy and a desire to bring about a more unified culture (and I'll say this for the umpteenth time - the one time I saw Cannonball live, cs. 1974, it was the most diverse audience I've ever seen anywhere, for anything. That does more than just make money, that creates a bonding of the social fiber, and don't think that's not important in the face of "divide and conquer".)

With some people, their "commerce" seems more ignoble as time goes by and we get some distance in the taillights. With Cannonball, Miles, and others, it seems to grow in nobility, like, these were people who KNEW that ""we" were many, so in numbers, in diversity with some common binding ingredients, there could be strength, fertility, growth.

Here's another thought - setting aside all the obvious differences, in David Axelrod, did Cannonball have his Teo?

[Late]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Here's another thought - setting aside all the obvious differences, in David Axelrod, did Cannonball have his Teo?

I'd say so, but I'm not half as familiar with Axelrod as I am with Macero.

(The two albums I used for the comp above, by the way, are The Black Messiah and Music, You All. I'm not as familiar with The Price You Got To Pay To Be Free.)

I understand the "all freaking in" argument, but I could live without Mike Deasy's guitar and Nat's (and certainly Nat Jr.'s) singing. But I LOVE when Nat gets into that sub-register. It always seems to make the audience laugh (the extra-low growling), but to me it's some serious sh*t. Brass players — is there a term for that type of playing? I could never picture Miles doing that. But Nat — for as much as he borrowed some of Miles' licks during this period — was not Miles Davis, which is a good thing.

I have to add — sometimes I daydream about what the band would've sounded like with Joe Henderson in the frontline. I think Cannonball always played a little better when there was some friendly competition on board. I think Joe would have raised the bar. Plus, I'd love to hear what he would have done with Zawinul's compositions.

Daydreaming aside, this period of Cannonball is perhaps my favorite. Burning. And when Zawinul left, George Duke didn't drop a beat. (And you can tell he'd been paying heavy attention to Herbie Hancock on Henderson's Power To The People.)

[JSngry]

42 minutes ago, Late said:

I'm not as familiar with The Price You Got To Pay To Be Free.

Remedy that, please (that's a friendly suggestion in the form of an imperative...). It's the one that is TOTALLY all over the map. Talk about taking a trip....do it via LP if possible, that's an experience that is very..."White Album"-y.

42 minutes ago, Late said:

I understand the "all freaking in" argument, but I could live without Mike Deasy's guitar and Nat's (and certainly Nat Jr.'s) singing.

Agreed on Deasy, but Nat, Jr...refer back to his input on The Price...for context. It's a shrewd career gambit, to be sure, but it's one well (brillaintly, in fact) played in multiple dimensions.

 

42 minutes ago, Late said:

 I LOVE when Nat gets into that sub-register. It always seems to make the audience laugh (the extra-low growling), but to me it's some serious sh*t. Brass players — is there a term for that type of playing?

Pedal tones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_tone

 

[JSngry]

43 minutes ago, Late said:

I have to add — sometimes I daydream about what the band would've sounded like with Joe Henderson in the frontline. I think Cannonball always played a little better when there was some friendly competition on board. I think Joe would have raised the bar. Plus, I'd love to hear what he would have done with Zawinul's compositions.

Have you gone back and checked out all the NAT albums with Joe(s) on board?

I'm still finding "deep catalog" Atlantic records with Joe Zawinul aboard as player and/or arranger, basic pay-the-bills stuff, but he was getting chances to arrange (as opposed to compose) on record a lot furhter back than I had realized.

[felser]

I've never even heard OF 'The Scavenger' let alone hearing it.  Makes me wonder what else I have totally missed on the Milestone label.  And a number of their releases have never been released on CD.  Gary Bartz's "Home" immediately comes to mind, and I wish someone would remedy that.  I'd even pay exhorbitant Japanese prices for that one.

[Late]

Considering that Nat Jr. was 15 at the time of that recording — well, that's pretty badass. Thanks for the pedal tones video and Nat/Joe tracks! I've neglected those albums, which is something to be remedied indeed. Like felser, I didn't even know about The Scavenger. 

[JSngry]

There's also two Nat/William Fischer collaboration's on A$M/CTI that equally as all over the place as the Cannonbal albums under discussion here. However, ti''s a totally different place that they're all over.

Those guys had a business sense that considered all the options equally, let's put it that way, and maybe only in retrospect.

[Late]

The Scavenger was available as a Japanese import back in 2013. I've never really given Nat's Atlantic work its proper due. Must change that.

[jazzbo]

Yes, that Japanese cd is very good sounding! (As are almost every one in that reissue series in my opinion).

[JSngry]

 

 

 

 

 

[jazzcorner]

[felser]

Never heard of that one, either.  I really need to go find a Milestone discography, thanks for the lead.

[JSngry]

The New Orleans record was recorded for Riverside but never made it out.

15 minutes ago, felser said:

I really need to go find a Milestone discography, thanks for the lead.

http://www.bsnpubs.com/new/milestone.pdf

 

[felser]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

The New Orleans record was recorded for Riverside but never made it out.

http://www.bsnpubs.com/new/milestone.pdf

 

Thanks, a lot of potential treasures to explore there!

[Late]

Just a heads-up: Dusty Groove currently has The Black Messiah (used 2CD set) in stock. The price listed is a lot lower than I've seen on eBay. And it's a great time to support our favorite bards.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Late